Cash and its digital twin – Wolfram Seidemann – [Season 2 | Episode #5]

Podcast Intro 00:00:00 Hello. Welcome to P.I.T. Exchange, a podcast by Currency Research. Join us as we discuss the latest in payments, innovation and technology with the industry’s most innovative thought leaders. Today’s payments are changing and moving around the world faster than ever before, and P.I.T. Exchange gives you the knowledge and insights to keep up. Sit back and relax as we join currency research, exchanging ideas with today’s special guest.

Jens Seidl 00:00:33 Welcome to the P.I.T. Exchange. This time we are recording at our central Bank payment conference in Paris, and I’ve got a very special guest with us today, Wolfram Seidman from Giesecke+Devrient. Welcome, Wolfram. Welcome. Yes. It’s nice to be with you here in Paris. Thank you for being here. And thanks for taking the time during the busy conference to sit down and record this episode with us. And I think we’ve got some, some really interesting topics to talk about, some about cash, some about payments. So I think it fits well with the location we’re in at the moment. But before we do that, as usual, I’m going to ask three random personal questions to get to know the person well from a little bit better.

Jens Seidl 00:01:17 Okay, start with a really simple one on an airplane. Do you prefer aisle or window aisle? Why is that? Because I want to be fast out. Fair enough. then when it comes to listening to music, do you prefer radio or streaming services? Streaming services. Okay. So you like to choose what you listen to?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:01:39 Yeah. And I like to get, new proposals from an algorithm that I can twist.

Jens Seidl 00:01:46 Okay. That’s interesting. All right. And the last question, what’s your favorite cuisine? Or even your favorite dish? Italian. Yeah, I’m with you. I don’t say pizza, but I also like pizza. Oh well, there’s a lot more than 2 or 2. Italian food? Yes. I like your choice. Very good. And we’ll come to that. All right. Well, great. Let’s. Let’s jump in. you’re obviously very much connected to central banks through your business. And I’ll let you talk a little bit about your business in a moment. but, I think we both agree that the role of the central banks is changing at the moment.

Jens Seidl 00:02:24 There’s quite a lot of, Yeah, change that really is starting from promoting and bringing in new, electronic payments, but also dealing with changes in the cash landscape. So maybe I’ll let you start a little bit talking about, and, and your role with central banks and how, you see the landscape changing. Okay.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:02:54 Well, First of all, central banks, I think, have a very stable role and responsibility in maintaining price stability and, running monetary policy. but when you address means of payment, yes, there is a change. And, many people already quote that in the last five years we have so much change in the payment landscape as we didn’t have in the last 50. And I think that that’s rather intact. and interestingly, we also see a slightly different behavior of central bank, when it comes to cash, from being very neutral to more active now to defend cash as a public means of payment, which provides a strong value to society. And I find that interesting because it goes hand in hand.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:03:57 with the discussion also on what is the future landscape of, central bank’s involvement in payments, where the world becomes more digital and where they all think about. would they then also issue public currency in a digital format? So there’s quite a big debate going on. And, we try to stay close to that since, our, relationship to central banks is vital for, our business to support them. And, that’s why also my personal role has changed over time. I, well, originally came actually from the digital space. I was responsible for smartcard business in Asia, but then moved to banknotes and currency or cash related solutions. and now I’m responsible for the currency technology portfolio, which includes the cash related business, but also CBDC related business.

Jens Seidl 00:05:00 Okay. So you’re saying the attitude of central banks is changing when it comes towards, protecting cash? at the end of the day and I think some people would say why is that important as long as people can make payments. that’s the main thing. Why do you think it is important to to preserve cash and and make sure that people who want to use cash can continue to do so?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:05:23 Yes.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:05:23 Central banks have a public view. They’re not driven by profit interest, but they look at the entire society and businesses and, offer a inclusive, means of payments. store of value and and also unit of account. And I heard central bankers saying that. Yeah, we are here also to protect cash, because protect cash protects people and provides value to to the entire society is fully inclusive. And there are, as of now, large parts of society globally that, fully rely on cash. So we have to make sure that, this can also be, the case in the future.

Jens Seidl 00:06:15 and we just heard a panel discussion, actually on financial inclusion. and I think ultimately, while financial inclusion is important and we want to help people get on that financial inclusion ladder because it’s payments is only the entry level rung on that ladder, isn’t it. It’s then about really getting insurance and mortgages and loans etc., etc. but while that is happening, cash is still essential for financial inclusion, isn’t it?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:06:42 Oh yes.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:06:43 Yeah. I mean, when it comes to payment solutions, cash is today the only inclusive system that is available. but of course, when it comes to digital payments, as you said, that can be the on ramp to further products and services. and I think here we, we, we have to be careful because in the digital space, it’s also about data. And data can be used in positive ways, but it can also be used in asymmetric ways where and we have to make sure that that we are getting that right. Because think about a commercial bank that is issuing a CBDC wallet to, unbanked people. allowing, the, the bank, with the consent of the user, to collect data that helped the bank to create a credit profile for the user that can actually, in fact, be the on ramp into financial services like micro credits or other products and services.

Jens Seidl 00:07:56 Yes. No, that makes sense. And I mean, you mentioned commercial banks. I guess central banks alone cannot, be the only protectors of cash, right? There’s a whole cash, environment.

Jens Seidl 00:08:10 There’s a whole cash cycle with multiple players in it. So it’s what, is there a responsibility across the industry to to gather around this and really make sure that cash continues to be viable and available to everybody?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:08:26 Yeah, clearly the industry has to ensure that cash stays to be attractive. actually it’s interesting we talk about the five. Maybe that’s the sixth a already that it has to be attractive. but of course the regulator who’s issuing a public goods, carry some responsibility that, the infrastructure is working. and part of the overall ecosystem for currency or for cash has been pushed to the commercial market or the commercial players. And of course, here also the regulator has certain responsibility that, it, it is attractive enough to have enough competition. that then creates an efficient, cash cycle.

Jens Seidl 00:09:14 Yeah. Okay. so you mentioned the word attractive, just now. What what can we actually do to maintain the attractiveness of cash? How what what innovations are in the pipeline as well to help with keeping cash not only relevant, but attractive that people actually want to use it.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:09:33 Yeah. well, there’s always a big debate. if we could get rid of, people who are already dead for more than More than 150 years on portraits of banknotes. Maybe they could also become more modern or, recent. I always, yeah, I don’t go to that, but, let’s address the five A’s again. I think it’s it’s so important for a efficient and resilient cash cycle that, there’s access to cash. That’s number one. And we can judge for ourselves. I’m sure you also carry a banknote in your pocket, but I’m sure when you go out to eat tonight, you will use a card to pay because you don’t want to give that €50 bill away, because you know that you have to go to an ATM to to replenish your wallet again. And, so we have to make sure that the cash is in excess. And, the recent discussion also about the single currency package in the eurozone, for example, is is is an indicator for that changing role of of central banks.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:10:44 They start looking into, heat maps of, of cash access and monitor that. everyone has in fact access to cash. And the industry needs to ensure that it’s also available in the right denominations, which is a bit of a challenge. And so they’re doing a fantastic job there. and again, then the next point is the question of cash acceptance. it doesn’t help the user if you walk into a shop and, they say, sorry, we don’t accept, cash. here again, I believe that the regulator has a certain, authority and responsibility to protect vulnerable parts of society, and ensure that it can be accepted. I would also add two more ways. One is, the in the cash cycle, we need to ensure that the authenticity of banknotes and coins are maintained. Because if there is only a slight risk that in your access to cash, you risk to get a counterfeit trust in currency and cash in that case goes down. And that would, of course, push people further into, using rather digital, payment solutions where they take a compromise on paying fees or sharing data.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:12:10 But if it’s less risky, of course you would would switch. So I think this is super important. And when we talk about innovation, we have to keep that in mind because we should not, create shortcuts which may look attractive in the first glance. But if we are not doing it well, may risk that the integrity into the currency cycle is Not guaranteed anymore. Yes. And last but not least, I think also. there is a certain affection to cash necessary. Or I always discuss with central banks as an issue of the products cash. You should also market it. And to market the product means to to also speak in the language and the wording of your target markets, which is rather a broad one. and the but the other aspect is we need to ensure that cash is not stigmatized, or the cash users are not stigmatized because sometimes we talk cash is the, the crisis tool or is, old school or oh, you use cash, don’t you? Pay your taxes, which I think has nothing to do with it? Yes.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:13:29 so we have to be very careful here, and it’s about creating a A positive brand for cash is super important. Cash is part of modern life, and there are a lot of good ideas and innovations to ensure that this is the case. Starting from ideas. How to improve sustainability of the ecosystem. Ideas to improve the resilience and efficiency of the cash cycle, and a solution that guaranteed this access and acceptance is attractive and easy.

Jens Seidl 00:14:01 Okay. Well, innovation I think, is a good, keyword here as well. We actually we are on the pit exchange payments innovation and technology. So what innovations are there in the technology space that will actually, make a difference now? Because I think, I think you’re right, that cash that’s been around for so long now and there hasn’t been really, that much change to the way cash has been used and distributed. But recently, I think we’ve seen quite a few new innovations coming down the line. So do you want to talk a little bit to that?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:14:35 yeah.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:14:36 so currently we’re working. based on the strategic priorities, of the stakeholders in the currency cycle, where number one is resilience. Number two is efficiency. And, if that is then also sustainable, it’s even better. Yeah. so when we look into, resilience, there are a lot of, further innovation in terms of currency automation. we learned in the last pandemic that how important it is to be able to respond to consumer demands, by all means, which means that, if you look at worldwide on the infrastructure for cash in place, we see a lot of investment, required to be able to respond short term and keep cash flow liquid in The circulation. so vault automation, provides proper solutions. here on one side, then the integration of stakeholders of the cash cycle. from large cash factories to smaller cash hubs. to transport and and, and forth. Where we see that we can improve the efficiency a lot by using standardized containers. so here we also see a lot of innovation going on. and then on top of the, physical product components, we see a lot of benefit in software solutions.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:16:14 where you even can use new technologies like automated forecasting through, through artificial intelligence, interfaces. And, that makes it easier for participants to do. Planning. To create transparency and improve the efficiency of each of their operations. And last but not least, if we look at sustainability, we’ve worked a lot on, creating, more sustainable solutions, starting from not using single, use, packaging, in wrapping of banknotes, as well as which is also, by the way, a reason for using rather container than these bundles of plastic, bundles. and also we’ve, we’ve developed a, great approach to this, disintermediate, banknotes into paper fibers that can be then, simply put into the recycling bin, which feeds it back to the circular economy and, that allows, a complete new recalibration of the carbon footprint in production of banknotes. Okay, so, yeah, there’s a lot of, on their end, and I can only invite you to to visit us in July at the Currency Technologies and, where we, we open a bit our laboratories and, Yeah, you can have a sneak preview.

Jens Seidl 00:17:47 All right. Great. Thank you. well, let’s change gear and move on from cash to, the electronic side of things. We’ll come back to cash a bit later on, if I may, because I still want to look a bit further into the future. But before we do that, there are, I don’t know, more than 100 projects now underway worldwide where central banks are looking into issuing central bank digital currency, CBDCs. Yeah. within that, as, of course, the two, main headlines wholesale CBDCs and retail CBDCs. And for today, I think we should focus on retail CBDCs, because that’s again, that’s, the not not the equivalent to cash, necessarily, but in addition.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:18:30 I call it the digital twin of cash.

Jens Seidl 00:18:31 Oh that’s interesting. I like that term. All right. So this this is underway. Right. Why do you think this this is actually relevant? Why does this matter? Why is it an important initiative?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:18:43 Well, simply because the world becomes more and more digital.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:18:46 And if a purely digital business model is is offered, you have no possibilities to pay with cash. Although I also see, by the way, some interesting innovation that that bridges these two worlds. as we’ll come to that later. Maybe. but that forces the user practically to enter into a third party contract, to subscribe for a private, digital payment system. And, here CBDC would provide a public option to the user, to the citizens and businesses. which, can be used independently from the issuer. And that is the value that actually today cash brings to society. That’s why we discussed about it, that it needs to be protected because you can use it independently from the issuer. And we don’t have that in the digital space. and so therefore, I see a lot of, value in that debate, that central banks want to extend their mandate into issuing a digital format of public currency. and yeah, in fact, all discussion shows, it will go into that direction. Only question when and how and how I think is so important because, the central banks, they don’t want to compete with private, market participants, but they want to lay the foundation.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:20:25 They want to. To provide an infrastructure which can be then used to develop new products and services from a private sector.

Jens Seidl 00:20:33 Okay. Well, I think that’s a good question. How are we going to actually achieve that? Because the central bank alone, I think, will not be able to do this. And I think the central banks are very open about that as well. They say they depend on other players. Yeah. in the, in the ecosystem. So how do we actually get the other players on board with this? Because potentially a retail CBDC could, erode their revenues or their profits. It could erode products that they’ve been working on for years, spend a lot of money on on creating these products. How do we actually convince, I mean, let’s call it out commercial banks and and other existing players to to want to become part of the solution.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:21:14 Yeah. Well, mainly through dialogue. and a central bank has a mandate if the market fails. And honestly speaking, if you look at the global payments market, it’s fragmented.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:21:31 it comes with high costs to the user. and we we have not delivered also on financial inclusion, to be honest. so these are all good reasons. where central banks or why central banks are looking into that, but they also prudently look into, what do they need to focus on in order to maintain their mandates for monetary policy and price stability? and, I think there is has been developed quite a mature understanding with the central banks now, how stability should be designed and how the architecture of it should be, unfolded. And that is a part of public infrastructure that allows for standardization, that allows to create these networks, effect that we want to have instead of having a fragmented world. And that allows the private sector to create new products and services on top of that public infrastructure. And with that approach, I think, we can really, see CBDC as a driver of the digital economy. and yeah, but we have to have a bit more dialogue because still there are a lot of myth or myths that we need to debunk.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:23:01 because of course, we have an existing system where the roles are clear and, and by introducing such a new ecosystem, some roles may change and some focus may shift. Yes. Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:23:17 Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, it reminds me of two things, if I may. one is, we recorded an episode with, Ian Woolford from the reserve Bank of New Zealand, a while ago. And he was very surprisingly clear in saying to me, surprisingly, on that recording that he feels that the commercial sector is not just progressing quickly enough and is not innovating enough. And that’s why the central bank is stepping in to help with innovation. I think it’s a real it’s a very good statement to make. I like that. Yeah. and I had myself a similar discussion just a few weeks ago. We were both in Berlin at the Bundesbank’s, budget symposium, and I talked to someone from the commercial sector how the commercial banks have failed to innovate in certain spaces, like person to person payments, for instance.

Jens Seidl 00:24:07 It’s in Germany. We’re both from Germany. It’s not easy to make a person to person payment unless you have cash or PayPal. Those are the really two easy options. Other than that, I start asking you for an Iban number, which I don’t know who memorizes it. I feel sorry for them.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:24:23 And it’s also I may only get it two days later. Yeah, yeah, well.

Jens Seidl 00:24:28 At least as in kudos to the to the European Commission now. the real time payments are free of charge. That’s that’s a good, innovation as well. Commercial innovation.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:24:39 I need to make it very clear. the commercial sector does a fantastic job. They come up with great solutions. They come up with fantastic service levels. and they offer convenient payment, alternatives, which sometimes when you ask, someone, do you need a CBDC? They say, well, I can pay. I have my, my my products and brands. You all know them. but, as you said, if five people are in the room and we want to jointly by a birthday present for another one.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:25:15 It’s already difficult to to find a common standard, and that is where CBDC can play a role. And yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:25:25 Yeah, no I agree. And again I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I’m going to phrase this as a question. What do you think is going to be critical from a consumer’s point of view, that they will want to use a retail CBDC? What kind of features do they need to be there?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:25:44 I think also here we need to increase the dialogue further. since, there’s also a lot of misconception, for the consumer, if it comes to a public payment instrument. definitely. They need to be assured that privacy applies. and, as we are used to in, in, in the case of cash. but again, here, mature CBD architecture has been developed and its clear understanding of the central bank that they are not interested in the consumer’s identity, nor are they interested in who pays for what. So that’s why also there is this collaboration between central banks and the commercial sector to run a CBDC ecosystem where the central bank issues the payment instrument, the digital euro or the digital, you name it.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:26:39 but the wallets are issued by the commercial banks because they have the consumer access. They already have their mobile banking applets in place. They have onboarded the user, they have done the KYC processes. They have all these, processes and governance that we have developed to keep a digital integral, payment ecosystem. they have it in place. They just need to have that little piece of software that allows that wallet to transact with the digital currency. And, so, for the consumer, it’s very important to understand that. And, and to, to also see the difference. So I could even envisage a retail chain issuing a wallet which, allows the user to collect, loyalty points for the benefit of getting better prices and, promotions. but with the consent of the user that the retail shop can actually collect data of what has been, shopped for. Yes. that has nothing to do with the digital currency, but it can use the digital currency to provide the payment. And here is the fantastic value also for businesses.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:28:03 You can create new business models Model without the necessity to develop your own payment system. And that’s why we we. We have that fragmented landscape today. Everyone who has a great business idea also needs to develop. It needs to develop the payment lag for it. Yes. And here I see the difference and the true value of CBDC. That’s the payment instrument that can be used in new business models. So let’s focus on what are the digital business models that can create value to to businesses and citizens. What are digital assets that need to be created that can be traded with. But we don’t need to to think about who is issuing the currency for that or how is the payments? Yes. Lack designed?

Jens Seidl 00:28:55 Yes. And from my point of view, I think it’s there’s two things that are really important. The underlying technology and design needs to be sound, right? And people need to be able to trust in the underlying design. But I think it’s really then the user experience that will really decide whether it’s going to be successful or not, if it’s easy, if it’s intuitive, if it’s convenient.

Jens Seidl 00:29:18 but again, people will use it.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:29:19 Exactly. But here we rely again on the interfaces by the commercial sector. I will use my, mobile banking app. I would be happy to use Apple Pay as well. It’s not, on the today card scheme, which is behind, but but on a CBDC solution. which which, Apple starts to, to, think it’s also attractive. and, yeah, it has to be convenient, but I compare that with the situation. We talked about spending cash. You have to go back to the ATM. it would be more convenient for me to open my app and download some digital cash on my phone, or put a card to the phone, to the NFC reader, to the phone. I’ll download it to the card. I give the card to the kids and they can go shopping with it. Yeah, or someone wants to stay anonymous and pays with it in in in a grocery shop or a pharmacy for products that they want to pay anonymously. And that’s all possible.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:30:30 And I think the user will very fast find out that, the interoperability is fantastic and the multiple use cases that are possible to be created with minimal effort and existing infrastructure is really fascinating.

Jens Seidl 00:30:48 Yes. Yeah. And I think that’s that’s not an original thought by myself. But other people have said the same thing. It’s a little bit like when the iPhone came out with the App Store, right? As soon as you have that infrastructure there. People will invent new experiences. We can’t even imagine right now. I’m sure that will happen.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:31:06 Yeah. Yeah. And if these innovations are even more attractive, consumers will also be willing to pay for it. And we should focus on that. How can we create new products and services?

Jens Seidl 00:31:17 Absolutely. So let’s take just one more question on the retail CBDC side in the US. Of course, the new administration has just decided to stop all efforts on, Well, I think the executive order says on all CBDC, which of course includes and retail CBDC is, of course, for the US.

Jens Seidl 00:31:37 That’s one thing to do with in that geography for the rest of the world. Do you see this as a potential, deterrent now that people get nervous and say, oh, do we really want to do this? Is it actually an opportunity to say, well, now even more, let’s work on this. What do you think might be the reactions?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:31:56 Well, you have to ask central banks, And on that question, I can only give you my personal perspective. I think, it, maybe even promotes, the activities on CBDC because if you look at, what does it mean? there is central bank money, there’s commercial bank money, and there are stablecoins which are issued by Non-banks. so if transactions are being done in stablecoins, it’s not commercial bank money. So there might be even some commercial banks being are asking question of will it disintermediate the banking system. or even more, if you look at a country that has a different currency from the dollar, there might be an interest of the government to have contracts being executed in their local currency.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:33:00 Now, if that is done with US dollar stablecoins, that might not be in the sovereign interests of the country. and that could lead to ways to push either the question of issuing a local currency denominated stablecoin. The question is, will that be then able to compete with the liquidity that the US dollar stablecoin ecosystem can provide? Or will such a country think about, digitizing their local currency and, and offer that platform for innovation that we have just discussed and in pilots that we did in, in various countries? we get, very strong feedback from the commercial bank side and also the, the fintech side that By the possibility to use public infrastructure, they can reduce their operational costs and they can also improve time to market for new services. So in countries where you may have one mobile money provider, there might be a way to create competition and offer another one. But both of them, will be interoperable with the local currency. And that’s the attractive part of it. So we have standardization and we have less fragmentation, but we have more competition on on innovative products and solutions that differentiates those providers.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:34:35 And that’s exactly the intention that central banks have. They want to foster growth and innovation, and they want to to create competition.

Jens Seidl 00:34:45 So positive outlook I like that. I’m an optimist by nature as well. And I’d like to think there there are opportunities in in every challenge, right?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:34:55 No, absolutely. I mean, I’m actually looking positive into both, formats. I believe that we will see innovation in the digital space, but I’m also convinced that we will continue to use cash.

Jens Seidl 00:35:10 Excellent segue back to cash. Thank you. I wanted to ask the question as well with Gen Z is old hat. Now there’s the next generation coming. Generation Alpha. and they are always online. They’re going to be super used to AI using that. They are fully immersed in this electronic digital world that we’re in. How do we get them excited about cash? What do we need to do for them to want to use cash?

Wolfram Seidemann 00:35:44 Well, that’s a very good question. And I think that’s a bit, a task for, the parents to ensure that there is enough financial literacy.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:35:57 And you can start very early, by, playing with your kids with coins and notes and, I don’t joke, but it’s research says that the human brain is only capable of understanding complex abstract concepts. starting around the age of 10 or 12. And, if you want to start earlier, which I would recommend, it really helps to, train kids the basics of, money savings and spending. and with coins that works. and once, kids understood the concept of cash, or of money. They will also go back to it and use it. so. But after all, it’s also a bit of society to ensure that we are not stigmatizing cash usage and that we also understand cash as a communication tool between parts of society. And I think if you think that through thoroughly, you will definitely find out that, the value of cash is higher than its denomination value.

Jens Seidl 00:37:26 So to explain that, well.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:37:28 We talked about the 50 or the €20 dollar banknote. and actually, if you think about what, what, additional values are associated with the use of it starting from the possibility to, to, to do savings.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:37:48 the possibility to, independently use it from, from anyone involved to hide it away, maybe, for specific purposes to, to spend the education of your children. that that value is, is tremendous. And, so I strongly believe that there is there’s strong value. While if it comes to the digital space, you are easily trapped into a digital business model. where at the end of of that circle, you have less than $20 available because, there were services given which which you have to pay for. And at the end, everyone involved has its share. while if a $20 euro note circulates, it still remains €20.

Jens Seidl 00:38:41 Yes.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:38:42 So there’s some value in it as well.

Jens Seidl 00:38:43 Okay, okay. That’s interesting. I think from from my perspective on Generation Alpha, I think we really it’s going to be a challenge. And I hear what you’re saying about the parents need to educate the kids in using cash, etc., but I think they’re so digital in what they do. When I think back to my childhood, I was playing with a physical.

Jens Seidl 00:39:03 I was a kind of sad kid. I had a post office and, like a retail store kind of playground. And of course there was cash involved with that. So we had a physical thing that we were playing with every day. the kids are always on their phone or an iPad, etc. I think we’ll, we’ll have to come up with more ideas how we can make it a behavior, a habit. Right? Because if it’s just which parents are going to really sit down and teach their kids the helicopter parents, it’s yeah, we’ll have to see.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:39:32 But I don’t know, what’s your view of the world? I rather see the both extremes. It’s high tech and high touch. Our people, young people, they they, they learn very fast and they make usage of high technology, but, they also, unwind in the physical environment. And so here’s we have to where we have to, to also address the use cases for that for sure. because that, that will help them to be not connected.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:40:06 And sometimes there’s, there’s strong value in being not connected. And we see that through all the, the various ages. I mean, I can only talk for my kids. They’re 15 now. their value, sometimes to be, not connected. but, it’s a challenge. I, I fully agree with you.

Jens Seidl 00:40:28 And who knows, maybe we can come up with also some new ideas how to make cash a bit more exciting for the kids as well. I mean, you mentioned the 150 year old portrays on on banknotes. Maybe we can make it a bit more accessible.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:40:41 And Instead of Winston Churchill.

Jens Seidl 00:40:43 There you go. I run to the next ATM. All right. Wolfram. I’m so sorry. I think we’re about to run out of time.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:40:49 Yeah. Your conference restarts again. Yes, it’s a good one.

Jens Seidl 00:40:52 Well, this was a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed this. Thank you very much for taking the time and. Yeah, let’s let’s do this again at some point.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:41:00 Definitely.

Wolfram Seidemann 00:41:01 Great pleasure.

Jens Seidl 00:41:01 Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you all very much for joining us today. Do the usual like follow and make sure you miss none of the future episodes of The P.I.T. Exchange. I’m signing off for today, Jens Seidl from Currency Research and Wolfram Seidemann from Giesecke+Devrient. Thank you very much.

Podcast Intro 00:41:23 Thank you for listening to The P.I.T. Exchange, a podcast by Currency Research. Check out our upcoming events and publications at currencyresearch.com and join us for our next episode to hear what’s trending in payments, innovation and technology.