Governed Architecture: The Future of Offline, Payments, and Everything Digital – Joachim Samuelsson [Season 3 | Episode #07]

Intro & Outro 00:00:00 Hello. Welcome to P.I.T. Exchange, a podcast by Currency Research. Join us as we discuss the latest in payments innovation and technology with the industry’s most innovative thought leaders. Today’s payments are changing and moving around the world faster than ever before, and Pit Exchange gives you the knowledge and insights to keep up. Sit back and relax as we join currency research, exchanging ideas with today’s special guest.

Shaun Ferrari 00:00:27 All right, let me just see if I can quickly adjust. Let’s do the sky. There we go. Cool. We’ll go on the busy. See our backdrop. All right. Okay, then I will get us started. Here we go. Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us on the next episode of The Pit Exchange, where we talk about the latest in payments innovation and technology. I’m your host this week, Sean Ferrari here at Currency Research. And I am thrilled to be joined by Joakim Samuelsson, CEO of Crunch Fish. How are you today, sir?

Joachim Samuelsson 00:01:22 Yeah, great to be here. Again I don’t know, is it the fourth time I’m actually sort of sitting to be sort of a question by you, interview by you, Sean.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:01:33 I do look forward to it. So thanks for doing it again.

Shaun Ferrari 00:01:36 No, I appreciate it. And we always have such great feedback from the times you’re on. And it’s always such a fun time to to chat with you. We love doing it, and it’s nice because we see you all over the world that a lot of our different events and other events that are going on. So we have a chance to do some actual in-person recordings too, which is which is nice. this one, however, is is video and we’re we’re thrilled to be to be doing that. We we were looking forward to hanging out with you in, in Istanbul, but we had to delay things. so.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:02:05 I’m coming.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:02:06 In in the.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:02:07 This I’m coming in the end of all.

Shaun Ferrari 00:02:08 Yes, exactly. And we appreciate that. So we’ll we’ll do another live recording there as well so people can can wait for that also. but today we wanted to, to really chat about some of the stuff, some of the exciting work you’re doing on offline payments.

Shaun Ferrari 00:02:24 like usual. And I know you’re, you’re continuing at crunch to, to reimagine the world of, of digital payments offline. and I thought we could talk a little bit more about about what you’re doing, in that space currently. and I know one of the, the main aspects of it is resiliency, I think is, is where we’re, where we’re talking. So I don’t know if you want to if you want to start there maybe a little bit quickly. Just for those that haven’t heard our our previous recordings, a little bit about Crunch Fish, but then we could jump into kind of, the resiliency topic and what that means to you guys.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:03:03 Yeah. No, I love it. well, I think it is sort of very much about resilience. I do think that currently, the way the world has set up, digital payments, it’s set up with a, almost an assumption of continuous system availability that it always works. But that is sort of a structural flaw, I think, with, how digital payments are set up, because that’s that’s sort of the happy case.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:03:37 and, it’s simply not true. I don’t think you can design systems for just the happy flow, just assuming that everything would work and that that is where sort of finance is sort of coming in. And, I thought people were saying to me that. But aren’t we going for even more connectivity? Well it’s offline. It’s. Why do we even need it? But I would say we need it because, you know, I remember the days where digital payments came along and it was sort of a great convenience thing, but you still had cash. so, but as digital payments is becoming so critical for society, it just needs to work all the time. It’s not enough that it works almost all the time. And because of that requirement, offline payments, is becoming critical infrastructure as well, because you can’t just rely on this sort of assumption that you have digital payments, and it needs to work all the time. and let’s just hope it does. Even though we know it doesn’t.

Shaun Ferrari 00:04:51 Yeah. And I think I think that’s been definitely the, the one of the main sticking points, if you will, on on all of the digital payments out there.

Shaun Ferrari 00:04:59 It’s like, okay, well maybe it won’t work all the time, but it will work most of the time. And it’s like, well, right. But you can’t, you know, that that time that you want it to work and it won’t because you don’t have cell service or power or whatever your your resiliency calls for becomes a major issue. and I think.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:05:21 That’s, I think.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:05:22 It’s, it’s important to point out as well, it’s we’re not talking about connectivity, primarily because I think if the world was perfect, that and you only got that occasionally, some people didn’t have connectivity and couldn’t pay, and maybe they were sometimes on an airplane or whatever that they couldn’t pay because there is no connectivity. But I think what we really should be concerned about is the black swan event in the back end, because that doesn’t just hurt occasionally. Occasionally. One merchant that right now I couldn’t receive a payment. Or unicorn we couldn’t pay. I think the banks and the payment services, they can live with that outage.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:06:05 But the outage when the entire system goes down. And right now the world has just become more insecure. I just been in contact with people in the Middle East. It’s raining out there. I don’t know if you heard that. They they blew up the AWS Center in Dubai. A lot of banks went black. you know, and, that they that is a wake up call. But but we’ve had many of those before. We had the the Microsoft bug hit sort of all of Singapore is a very connected society. And all of a sudden, wow, we probably can’t just have that things works all the time. India I know had three outages for I don’t know if it was days, but it was these hours, on the UPI rail last year. And if you if you think that they make 10,000 transactions a second, it’s a lot of Indians who can’t pay if the system is down for hours. That’s, this is I think our premise is this, that if payments stop, or fail, then those societies stop because, you know, it’s almost like the cardiovascular system of a society is payments.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:07:16 You really can’t, you know, you can’t afford just having a system that, you know, assumes that they work all the time because they’re the black swan event. That’s the thing to be worried about. It’s really not 1 or 2 occasional connectivity issues. That’s they can probably live with that, but not the black Swan events. That’s the that’s the killer.

Shaun Ferrari 00:07:38 That’s the killer. Know for sure. So if we think about kind of in that, in that lens, generally there’s kind of these the typical way offline payments and our thought of. right? Which is? Okay, well, there’s money on my device or a device, right? And we then can make transactions from from device to device type thing that has some, some issues with it. Also there’s kind of this deferred model where you’re kind of accumulating all of these transactions and settling at a, at a later point when you get access. There’s some risk associated with that. You guys think of it differently. you’ve kind of called it a governed offline approach.

Shaun Ferrari 00:08:24 what? Tell us a bit more about how how you all envision.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:08:28 Yeah. Offline. Yeah. Well, you’re very right. I think the, the, the world has.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:08:33 Has seen two models for offline. it’s tested in the CBDC space. you know that we have this world where, the central banks, the issue cash and what they thought is that, all right, cash is offline. So why don’t we make cash work digitally? That’s what I’m thinking about. And that’s the first model you actually. You bring just you bring digital money out on devices, but you. Yeah, I am. I wouldn’t recommend that at all. For many reasons. We’ll probably come back to that. The other one is what is the standard on the EMV code guardrails. Offline is written as an exception, but validation happens later. And you can’t be sure whether there is sort of coverage for that payment. So you create a lot of unmanaged credit. It’s fine for minor disturbances here and there. I think it’s a good system, but if there is an outage for a week, then you have a whole country, accumulating unmanaged credit.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:09:37 that is not sustainable either. That’s systemic risk as well. So I think these two models, the immediate model where you move money to the device, creating a huge systemic risk on device. Alternatively, the deferred model there is sort of on a longer outage is systemic risk for credit unmanaged credit. They haven’t solved the systemic risk of of what you see in online payments is that it requires continuous operation. They’ve just moved a systemic risk. They moved it there to something else. But we believe with government offline that we have solved solved it without compromises. We we don’t. There is not not at all those systemic risk with governance of line. And the way we do it is we have another paradigm, another life cycle. We work with what we call reserve, pay and settle. So the initial step is that we don’t move money out of devices. We reserve it in the in the back end ecosystem. Who anyone who can hold money that will be banks and or other regulatory institutions. Money or digital money stays there.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:10:52 We do not take it out. But what we do is that we we reserve a capacity for how much you can spend offline. And then we just like the card model is that we, we execute offline. But it is it is like a, it’s a payment instruction. it’s an IOU from me to you, Sean. I it’s a it’s an irrevocable payment instruction, but there’s no money transferred offline. Money stays online. and, thanks to those reservations, you you cannot spend more than you act money. You you control. So we take away the credit risk from the deferred model. The card model. and we have deterministic settlements. It’s not going to be a surprise whether it’s cancel or not, because you. the money will be there because it’s, It’s actually. Yeah. It’s reserved. So, this is this is like a good way in the payment world to call it. It’s, this is programmable payments or smart contracts or conditional payments, sort of, same same name for the same thing.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:12:05 or a lot of names for the same thing.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:12:07 you, you.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:12:08 Create a conditional payments or a smart contract with yourself. Because what happens when when you set up a smart contract, is that the institution you do it with would withdraw the money from you? That’s what I call a restoration. They they take the money. and, the condition that the system is waiting for in order to settle is that a signed, cryptographically signed transaction from the payer is coming back to the back end. That’s the trigger for settlement. So it is. It’s sitting there waiting for that assignment. Action is coming back. And then as the money is reserved, just like the smart contract, the money will be there for the settlement. When? When it’s going to happen. That’s how we built our system. And I think that’s a smart way of doing it. Essentially, we haven’t tried to make physical cash work digitally. What we have done is to make digital money work offline. I think that’s the problem to solve.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:13:13 Who cares if you can make physical cash work digitally? It’s simply not the right problem to address.

Shaun Ferrari 00:13:19 Yeah. And I think it it also kind of positions it in that we’re not trying with these solutions to get rid of physical currency. There can still be a completely physical currency infrastructure. This is to your point making digital payments work money.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:13:37 Yeah.

Shaun Ferrari 00:13:38 Digital digital money online. Yeah. So it’s it’s not saying oh how do we how do we make this physical thing digital? It’s not the right question.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:13:48 Yeah, it’s a good system, actually. A physical cash. Let cash be cash. but digital money, that’s what you have in. That’s what we have in our bank accounts. Let’s add the capacity or the capability to work offline. That’s what we’re doing. Let’s go straight to the point, instead of trying to trying to sort of, in a way, defy nature and try to make, physical cash, sort of, what? It’s not the right problem to solve in order to get resilience.

Shaun Ferrari 00:14:16 Yeah. I think you trademarked a new slogan there. Let cash be cash, I like it.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:14:22 Yeah, I’ve been to some of you. You know, I’ve been to some of your physical cash conference. I don’t know how they are. They are really, you know, they take their cash world really seriously. I’m. I’m here to tell basically that. Yes, I’m all behind you. We’re not going to meet that need at all. We just want to make digital money work. Work offline. I hope you’re right that.

Shaun Ferrari 00:14:42 No, that makes sense. and you’re doing a lot of work right now. As you know, this isn’t just in theory, right? I mean, you’re working with the digital Ruby in doing a lot of these, this, this architecture as well.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:14:55 Yeah, yeah. No. India. India. India. Think. I think they started. Actually, they were on that route, to make physical cash digital. They actually even had fixed illuminations, that exact illumination illuminations they had on their banknotes.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:15:09 They had that in digital form. That wasn’t a very good idea, because how do you deal with change in a scenario like that? So they gave up that and they tried also. They stayed at the, the model and they, they tried that. They can sign out any sort of value, exchanging their money offline. But they have given up that as well. they do fast. And then now what the governance model, which we propose. So I’m happy that we, we also selected by Bank of England they, they have looked at model. They have officially said that they’re not going to put. They’re not going to try to make the digital pound. You know, as in this immediate model they are looking for for something else. And I think they are pleased we actually are having a meeting on them tomorrow where we’re going to do a final, I think, report on what we’ve done in the Digital Pound lab. so that’s interesting. But we also been in the, in Europe, Europe, I think with the help of bad consultants, they specified a spec which was the immediate model.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:16:15 I wasn’t impressed. and they have awarded that, but they have also gone for conditional payments and we have already shown to Europe or the euro system that you could get governance offline payments because it is a form of conditional payments. So we have already shown that. And I was at a Euro conference. Was it end of March here? And, There were so many who came up to me that, Yeah, we know our banking. Our banks do not really. They’re not too happy by taking out money from the banking system. but if we can do your model, that’s much better. So I think we have alignment with the banking sector because banks need. They need money on their balance sheets in order to do the business. That’s their that’s that’s basically the basis for their business that people have put money into the bank because then they multiply that a few times and then they create a sort of lending out of that, and they leave that. But look, what we’ve done with our system is that we create a stable operational float, which actually is even a free float for the bank, because, as I said, it takes the money when you reserve it offline, the the bank would actually move the money from you and put it on a, an account escrow account under their custody is still on their balance sheet, so they can still use it for their, their funding.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:17:46 And it’s improves their funding efficiency because it’s a free float. They don’t pay for it. This is this is good for the banks. And that’s why I think any bank would choose Governor Flynn any day of the week before the immediate model.

Shaun Ferrari 00:18:00 Yeah. No, that makes sense. And and you, you all put out a white paper, write in March all about the. I think it was the the big B.I.G. Right. analytical framework which we’ll, we’ll put a link on to this, this, this episode. So if people want to go look at it and read it, they, they can. But I would encourage folks to do that because it outlines very well this, this whole framework that you’re, you’re talking about.

Shaun Ferrari 00:18:28 Yeah. We, we.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:18:29 We realized we, we are very techie in our company, just like many other tech technical companies. We we pride or we’re very pride. Proud of our technology. But we realized that talking. Technology is it’s not we’re not getting through because it is it’s usually quite advanced technology and banks or even central banks, they don’t have many people in the organization that really could vouch for that.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:19:00 What I’m saying makes sense or not, because this is sort of very specialized. But what we did in this whitepaper was to develop an institutional lens to analytically sort of evaluate various models. And it is, is this banking friendly? That’s sort of the first one. We already talked about it. Our system is fantastically banking friendly because we create an operational free float that’s great for banks. The first one is to take money out of the banking system, and that’s the immediate model. Banks don’t like that at all. The in between is the card model where. Yeah, there will be credit risks, occasionally. And that’s, usually quite okay unless there is a longer outage, I would say so that’s in the middle. But then another one would be what about for service providers? that could be banks as well, acting as service providers. But any any application providers I don’t know. You know, in India on UPI, 90% of the volume is not with the banks, it’s with Google Pay, it’s with phone P.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:20:07 and they are wallets. They’re not allowed to hold money. they use banks, for posting, transactions on, on the UPI rail. And the users have their money sort of in the banks, on the the banks really, in accounts, in banks. But what they need is they need scalability. They needed this solution to get to all their customers, not customers who have special phones that could. You know that this this just kills the the scalability. And then it needs to be interoperable. And if you are particularly the immediate model, which I am least fond of you, you are looking for. You mean to the conferences? Yeah. It has to be hardware. Yeah. But but good luck. There’s no ecosystem in the world that can distribute and trusted application on hardware. on, you know, the whole ecosystem of phones, and you need hardware also on the receiving side. So you need hardware on both sides. And it’s it’s probably even harder to get it into cloud terminals. How do you get the special hardware into the big install base of car terminals in order to receive those, you know, money offline? You.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:21:28 I think the answer is you don’t. So it’s it’s so much a non-starter from an application perspective. But then lastly we need to we go to the G. The the B was the bankable, I was implementable and G is government. And a system needs to be the system as well as the central banks. They have this regulated stuff. So it needs to be governed but it needs to be governed. And again, if you start with the immediate model where you take out money, you creating a parallel digital universe of money, you lose control of this money. Who who wants that? How on earth would you like to have a, you know, another universe? I can see cash. I can see that they have worked with that for a long time, and they set up rules for that. But now it’s going to be digital. All all of all of a sudden, that’s extremely dangerous, to create a parallel universe of digital money. Instead, what you should do. As I said earlier, you should make digital money that they have already operations to control and to govern, and you should just allow that to also execute offline.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:22:46 That’s the problem to solve. And I think now in this whitepaper, when we express ourselves not as techies, but rather trying to speak the language of banks, application providers and central banks and the system operators, what they need to do in their operation. Then now people are listening, big time, because we we are. yeah, I think this this resonates with them. We’re speaking the language, we’re saying the outcome. And honestly, the architecture. We are proposing a third architecture here in the world. This used to be just two immediate or deferred. Now we’re coming with a third governed. And and it beats the other two on all counts. And that’s. That’s the important thing.

Shaun Ferrari 00:23:35 Yeah. Know for sure. And as we think about this, this concept of of governed, I mean, we’ve been talking kind of about the, the governed payment side, but we can also go beyond payments with it. Right. Which is where we can can move the conversation to, okay. We have this world of of AI, of cloud infrastructure.

Shaun Ferrari 00:23:55 I mean, you mentioned the AWS center. And earlier in the conversation, I mean, everything is cloud AI. I got two different AI things running on my phone, right? Maybe three that I don’t know about in the background. how do we bring it all together? How do we move to, like, governed applications or, you know, that.

Shaun Ferrari 00:24:16 Next.

Shaun Ferrari 00:24:16 Level of payments.

Shaun Ferrari 00:24:17 I think, before we move to government applications, which we could I’d like to.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:24:22 Let’s say at payments, let’s actually do that first because, we have digital money and we’ve already said that. yes, we have a systemic risk of assuming continuous operation, continuous system operation. Consistent continuous system availability is sort of assumed even if everybody knows. But I don’t know if people even saying it. that can’t be assumed. so you have a structural problem with online payments. And the reason why we have that is that instant payment, the way it’s been set up is that it’s it merges three critical steps. It merges authentication, basically that they have to check.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:25:06 Sean does Sean Ferrari wants to pay. the system has to be absolutely sure because otherwise Sean Ferrari would be very unhappy. But all of a sudden there were money moves. They have to they have to know that you want to pay. And that’s sort of authorization or authentication that that needs to be there. All right. That’s the first step. And then the second step is clearance. They have to check who you want to pay to is there, but more importantly, that’s shown Ferrari have any money. Otherwise they don’t want to move. They can’t have any money. So there’s the clearance step. And then the third one is settlement. It’s actually when you move money. But it goes in these three steps. But the problem with instant payment is that they have lumped everything into one step. They have gone for it needs to be fast. So let’s just make everything into one step. What needs to happen is let’s break it up and I’ll start with conditional payments. As we were talking about. The good thing with conditional payments is that they separate settlement from the other two steps.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:26:11 So settlement is is clearly something that can happen later. It’s set up in a way that settlement could come with conditions. Obviously if there is no condition, conditional payments is instant payment because then it will settle immediately. There is no condition. That’s fine, but conditional payments, the way it’s set up, there is actually some reservation of the money that you want to do, and settlement will happen as soon as everything are met. But you have actually separated the step. What we bring to the table. If we look at these two as a legacy online models, we have the big, big model of the world is instant payment. We have the new model of conditional payments. These are, I would say, legacy models. We we break all steps or we break it up. We because we can work offline. Authentication in our system always has to come with the message itself because otherwise how could we how could we know, Sean, that you want to pay offline unless we could authenticate that, you know, Sean wants to pay.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:27:19 So we have already built in authentication as a as a separate step. So now we have a system which is separating these three steps, which instant payment has lumped together as one. And that is what makes it vulnerable. Conditional payments makes it slightly more stable and more flexible because you can conditions but go all the way to not govern offline payments, but govern online payments. You have a system that breaks it up, and if there is no conditions and there there is sort of, everything works in the back end system. A governance payment will be an instant payment as well. But you have the flexibility. And it’s a particularly one very crucial point we take away. Typically online payments are relying on a centralized electronic identification system. There’s one system that’s a single point of failure. In Sweden we have something called bank ID this is a If that system goes down. We are. Really? Yeah, we. Sweden goes down. You can’t log into banks. You can’t pay anything. You can’t. It’s not like it’s to your insurance company.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:28:34 Everybody’s using this. But what we do is that natively within the application itself, we have a way to authenticate. So we we are operating without. And that creates for online payments resilience because otherwise you are dependent on that. That system sort of should go. So breaking it up I would say just like we challenged it to offline legacy model immediately. Third, we challenge actually to online systems as well for instant payments, for conditional payments with a new architecture. And we do it by architecture. We think this is the architecture of the future. So not for offline. We we are also coming. We’re coming for the online guys as well and saying we should go for a better architecture there also. And then then what we have is starting to be really big. And that’s even before we have said, okay, as you said, Sean, let’s generalize this because it doesn’t have to be payments. It could be it could be a subscription model in a generative AI application, or it could be it could be identification payments.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:29:50 it could be anything. and that’s, you know, we talked about that in 2020 when we did our, exchange on trust clients. That’s the that’s even bigger. But I, I’m happy to stay at I. Everybody knows us that we are cleared for offline payments. But what’s interesting and we are going to talk about that more. And I have very happy to do that when I come to Istanbul, that this goes beyond offline governance. Payments as an architecture is superb, not just for offline payments but also for online payments as well.

Shaun Ferrari 00:30:23 Yeah for sure. And I think what’s what’s really exciting about it is, as you say with this architecture, it’s it’s scalable, as flexible so that as you have the potential to move to these governed applications. it works together with the governed payments. So, you know, I’ve heard I’ve heard many different, presentations over the past, especially the past year, six months as AI and, and agenda AI and all those sorts of things start taking off. Right.

Shaun Ferrari 00:30:55 These these payments to your point. Move these these agents get involved in payments. so now you’ve got AI, conditional payments, all that sort of stuff working together. And in a world where it moves instantly, you have some, some risks with that. And I think what’s nice about your solution is, as you say, you’ve, you’ve you’ve kind of leverage the new technology and the way you’re thinking about the modeling so that you can separate the different steps, make it safe, make it fast, and it eliminates some of the risk, but it also allows it to grow, which I think is interesting.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:31:33 It is. I love this.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:31:35 Expression that in the in the 70s, when internet came about, you know, this came from, Department of Defense, they realized that the way communication was before, when it was circuit switched. if the enemy blew up, switch or a link. Well, we can’t communicate with the truth because they, you know, they it’s circuits which you bring. You take down one step of the chain and then it’s then it’s then it’s gone.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:32:04 But Department of Defense, they invented, packets which communication and and there was an expression. It’s survivability. It needs to have survivability in the face of failure. And what we have done, in essence, is that what they they did in the 70s here for the internet, that survivability in the face of failure on communication layer, you know, the there could be a switches down or a or a link is down on top of communication. You build applications and, you know, instant payment is a perfect example. That is that’s a that’s a chain. Everything has to be up and running. Otherwise instant payment doesn’t work. The communication layer could still be working fine, but there is something wrong on the application level and then it doesn’t work. So I don’t think the world has learned much from what actually happened when the internet came about and and actually delivered to us survivability in the face of failure. They did it on the communication layer. What we have done at crunch phase is delivering Visibility in the face of failure on the application layer, which works on top of communication.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:33:24 And that’s a major feat, actually, that’s not just offline payments. We started with that, which was a great application to get dirty with, but we have seen already that this has massive implications for online payments as well. But any application for that matter who needs survivability in the face of failure?

Shaun Ferrari 00:33:44 Awesome. That is perfect. And I think it’s a nice kind of note to to wrap us up on today. so I thank you for your time. I hope the the listeners have have enjoyed this. you have any other final, final messages for folks as we kind of, wrap up.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:34:03 Come to Turkey.

Shaun Ferrari 00:34:05 Perfect, I like it.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:34:07 Come to Turkey. This is, great conference. it’s, was supposed to be both. It was it may or or.

Shaun Ferrari 00:34:15 Maybe it was supposed to be March. Actually, it was supposed to happen.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:34:18 Yeah, but you had to push it and then.

Joachim Samuelsson 00:34:21 But it’s it’s going to be end of, What dates is it?

Shaun Ferrari 00:34:24 And yeah. So it’s the like August 30th through September 3rd.

Shaun Ferrari 00:34:29 So very end of August, beginning of September. A good way to wrap up everybody’s, summer summer as they head into the fall with, getting together and in Istanbul. We’re looking forward to it where we’re talking about this and and many other, many other payments, policies and developments in the central banking space. And we’re we’re thrilled to have you have you there?

Joachim Samuelsson 00:34:49 Yeah. I’d love to be there. Yeah. It’s always good to me at conferences. Go. Cool. All right.

Shaun Ferrari 00:34:53 Well, yeah. Thank you. Thank you all for for joining us. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Thank you again, Yoakum, for your your thoughts on this. and to all the listeners out there, thank you for your time. Please like subscribe, download, do what it is, wherever it is you do it with your podcast. We’re thrilled. You take the time to listen to us, and we look forward to chatting with you again shortly.

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