India’s Digital Payment Journey – Ritesh Shukla [Season 3 | Episode #16]

Jens Seidl 00:00:31  Okay, welcome to another episode of The P.I.T. Exchange, Payments Information Technology. My name is Jens Seidl, and I am your host for this episode. It’s my pleasure to have a guest with us who’s actually, been one of our friends for many years now. You’ve been to a lot of our conferences. and it’s great to have you here. Ritesh Shukla from NPCI International. Welcome.

Ritesh Shukla 00:00:56  Thanks, Jens. It’s really nice to be here with you. And like you said, we have been closely, closely associated with what you do because I think somewhere our purposes are aligned and we are really proud to be part of the Currency Research Initiative.

Ritesh Shukla 00:01:11  And it’s my absolute pleasure being here with you on podcast.

Jens Seidl 00:01:15  Pleasure’s all mine. Thank you so much. as usual on my episodes, before we jump in and talk about, what you do, what your role is and what’s happening in your world. I always like to ask, like, three semi personal questions to get to know the person. Ritesh a little bit better for, for our listeners. So first an easy one. Tea or coffee?

Ritesh Shukla 00:01:35  Coffee.

Jens Seidl 00:01:36  Okay. Black. White. Sugar.

Ritesh Shukla 00:01:41  Black without sugar.

Jens Seidl 00:01:43  All right.

Ritesh Shukla 00:01:43  Arabica.

Jens Seidl 00:01:45  I, I started in the IT world, and I got used to drinking black coffee there as well. That seemed to be the thing in it. So I can relate for sure.

Ritesh Shukla 00:01:54  Yeah. And I’m. And I’m pretty particular about it. You know, I like French press or pour over. So I love my coffee. Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:02:02  Very nice. then, do you have a favorite band or singer or composer if you’re more into classical music?

Ritesh Shukla 00:02:11  I really like to listen to U2, and, I like to listen to Indian folk music as well.

Ritesh Shukla 00:02:18  I find it soothing. I do listen to mantras, you know? So. So it’s it’s, find it very relaxing and soothing. Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:02:26  Okay, cool. And travel related. What’s your favorite holiday destination?

Ritesh Shukla 00:02:34  I think, any destination that, you know, you can take your family, your friends along. I think that’s more important than the destination. You know who you are with? Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:02:45  Nice. All right. Great. Well, thank you for that. well, first of all, I’d like to hand over to you, please, to just give a quick introduction of who you are, what you do at NPCI International. and then we can jump into, And talk about the work that you’ve been doing and are working on.

Ritesh Shukla 00:03:02  So for everyone listening to the podcast. My name is Ritesh Shukla. I lead NPCI International. We are a wholly owned subsidiary of National Payments Corporation of India. And our mission, our vision is to take homegrown stack from India to international markets, to democratize payments and to kind of ensure that everybody has access to digital payments, which I think is very, very important in today’s connected world.

Jens Seidl 00:03:32  Absolutely. Great. Well, I think people, if they haven’t heard about UPI yet, then I’d be really surprised that they’re listening to this podcast, because it’s really been a topic that’s been discussed so broadly in the payments world. But still, if can you tell us a little bit about India’s digital payments journey and then what we have seen over the last few years and the role that you and your company have played in that.

Ritesh Shukla 00:03:59  So I think for me to, you know, give you a overview of that, I’ll have to go to 2008. You know, 2008 is the year when the Reserve Bank of India, the central bank of India, you know, decided, to create a payment entity focusing on retail payment needs of Indians. and before that, the, the digital payments, as we say, was restricted to, you know, top eight, nine cities, about 97 to 98% of PC was cash. so the central bank and the government realized that they need to have a domestic option.

Ritesh Shukla 00:04:36  We need to have a company that is more aligned with the market challenges, with the dynamics, with the behavior of Indians. And I think that’s when NPCI came into existence. and thereafter, you know, it has been a continuous rise for NPCI in India, and now NPCI International is globally. we have seen it evolve from strength to strength. And all this is possible because of a very progressive regulatory outlook that, you know, our central bank has. And as an organization, also, NPCI has found deep alignment with the national agenda of the country. So so that has been truly transformational for us. And now today, if you look at NPCI, we are operating a series of, you know, platform that are very, very well diversified and all aimed at displacing cash. today we operate world’s largest instant payment platform that caters to around 49 to 50% of the instant payments that happen globally. and it’s it’s been a transformational journey for us. look, if you look back, you also see how, you know, vibrant NPCI ownership is we are owned by 65 entities, and these entities are, are kind of state-owned banks, private banks, foreign banks and even fintechs.

Ritesh Shukla 00:05:57  So this allows us to get the best, collaboration, the best ideas and the best execution. kind of, that we do, today, India is, is, let’s say from 97% cash PC before, NPCI. today India is about, 65, 70% PC is still cash, but we have come a long way. We are a big country. And, I think UPI from the various platforms that NPCI runs has played a very, very important role. It today is the poster child for many, such, initiatives across the world. And, we are very happy and proud of it.

Jens Seidl 00:06:35  Great. And maybe before we talk about, what’s happening more on a global scale and what your ambitions and plans are in that space. a little bit more about India and why UPI has been so successful in India. What were the key differentiators, really? what’s new about UPI. That that wasn’t there yet. And what are typical use cases where UPI has actually made a big difference?

Ritesh Shukla 00:07:02  So if I think to answer to that question, I think I’ll have to highlight a few things that run beyond payments.

Ritesh Shukla 00:07:09  So if you look at, the the way the whole India stack has evolved, I think it’s very important to call that out. Now, India stack, or as the World Bank calls the digital public infrastructure, it has four layers to it. there is first layer, presence less layer. There’s paperless layer, there’s cashless layer, and there is consent layer. Now it has all come with a lot of deliberation and a lot of, you know, structural, thinking. Now, if you look at these layers, presence layer is our digital ID program. nearly every Indian today has a digital ID we call it Aadhaar, which means foundation in Sanskrit. Now this becomes the bedrock for various other initiatives that are going to unfold in the India stack. So the presence layer is, you know prominently exists today. Then comes the paperless layer, which is all about enabling citizens to live their life in a very paperless manner. So for example, I today, if I drive in India, I don’t have to carry my driver’s license, I don’t have to carry my vehicle insurance, I don’t have to carry my vehicle registration because everything is aggregated in a app called Digital Locker.

Ritesh Shukla 00:08:12  And this app is connected with APIs, with different service providers, and the information is directly fetched from the service providers. In this case, it could be transport authority or the insurance company. So I don’t upload these documents. These are fetched from the sources that are truly authenticated and genuine. So imagine there are various platforms that today exist like Digital Locker. There is ABHA where you can I can store my health records online, and I can give access to doctors across the country, and I can take second opinion. I can, you know, maintain history of my medical records and everything. So there is the second is the paperless layer. Third is the cashless layer which is vs NPCI set. And we have various platforms UPI, RuPay card in Bharat Connect and NFC, you name it. And we have these platforms that today exist all about displacing cash. And the the last layer is consent layer, which is about account aggregation, wherein within a predefined framework, I can share my information with third party service providers and get their services.

Ritesh Shukla 00:09:05  So if you see if you take a macro view, step back and take a macro view that there is a very, very strong, resilient framework that exists for each of these layers and all these layers, the various initiatives that are part of these layers are very deeply aligned with national agenda of the country. The national agenda of the country, you know, includes things like, we want to be a developed country by 2047, which is going to be the 100 years of India’s independence. We want to get 100 million foreign visitors to our country every year. So so these are payment centric. So I’m highlighting so there is a very, very thought through plan in place. And we are all about executing this plan in various layers that today exist.

Jens Seidl 00:09:43  Okay. That’s and what I found really fascinating in India is exactly what you, you described there, the digital public infrastructure, how deliberate this planning actually was, and how one thing was building on the other. And I mean, there’s already now the next steps happening following UPI.

Jens Seidl 00:10:03  Right. So the ULI initiative, for instance, enabling lending through digital infrastructure. And I’m sure that’s not the last step on this journey. So it’s really fascinating. And but also interesting, I think, is you’re saying that UPI is displacing cash. Do you see a difference there in urban areas compared to rural areas? Is that happening in different speeds, or is that quite consistent across the whole country?

Ritesh Shukla 00:10:30  I think that’s a great question, Jens. I think before, you know, UPI came into the picture, the digital payments were very much concentrated in the urban areas only. because these were the profitable pockets and, you know, the, the, the, the players driven by their profitability and various considerations, but focused on top cities and urban centers. But, like you said, you know, you know, 65% of our population is in villages. But if you look at UPI, it’s everywhere. It’s all over the country. We have about 60 plus million merchants who are part of this ecosystem, all accepting QR based digital payments.

Ritesh Shukla 00:11:13  Be it the remotest part of the country or the most urban center like Mumbai. I am sitting in everywhere. You will see UPI as as a way to, you know, transact. what we have done is, you know, we have, driven deep collaboration with the ecosystem players, be it banks or fintechs, and we have leveraged each of their strengths. So, for example, banks, if you see, are the best, you know, to manage money fund movement money. So the money within UPI framework doesn’t leave the banking rails. Fintechs are best when it comes to managing Interfaces, user experiences. You know, you know, creating that, stickiness. So, so the. So the some of the top apps in our country are like PhonePe, Google Pay or Paytm, BHIM. So these apps are amazing in terms of, you know, driving the user behavior, creating stickiness and also at the same time, you know, running campaigns and, and, you know, keeping them engaged.

Ritesh Shukla 00:12:14  So, so fintechs are managing that we as operator, you know, we are, you know, operating the platform by not only managing the technology stack, but very, very thought through and define scheme rules, that manage the whole lifecycle of the customer, including from the way transaction takes place using standardized keywords in the country to the way a dispute or a chargeback or the whole lifecycle management happens. So so that’s our responsibility. RBI being the regulator is, is is, you know, responsible for policy decisions for for ensuring that the consumer interest is protected for regulatory norms. So we are very, very, you know, deeply entrenched. Basis the role that each party has or the strengths rather each party has. And we are, you know, working very closely in deep collaboration to make UPI and other payment platforms as they are today great.

Jens Seidl 00:13:05  And then the next step and you’re already on that journey is, of course, with the most populous country in the world with also, a lot of Indians working outside of India.

Jens Seidl 00:13:18  There is a lot of cross-border, traffic happening or cross-border payments happening between India and the rest of the world. And with UPI being now so prevalent and in people’s pocket, quite literally, you’re also working on connecting UPI with other, payment systems around the world. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and how that’s going?

Ritesh Shukla 00:13:40  So, when you look at cross-border, I think that’s the core focus for NPCI International. And here we are looking at, enabling, cross-border remittances, P2P payments and merchant payments, P2P, which is when our, tourists visit other markets and, we are here, you know, guided by four, principles from our regulator, that revolve around speed, affordability, transparency and accessibility. and, we also realize that, you know, if you look at, Indians, we are in most, like every country across the world, we get about 135 billion inbound and about 30 to 35 billion outbound remittances happen from India every year. So what we are looking at is we are looking at connecting UPI with similar platforms.

Ritesh Shukla 00:14:32  And here, you know, we have gone live with PayNow in Singapore. We have gone live with the NPI in Nepal. we are looking at, we have signed contracts with the UAE for UPI integration with Kuwait for integration and with the Bahrain Benefit for integration with their instant payment platform. So what we are looking at is we are looking at creating these digital highways between identified corridors for the, the, the consumers on both sides to leverage this connectivity and to be able to send money on a real time basis. And here we are also looking at bringing down the cost that is aligned to the World Bank and the G20 principles, so that, you know, these people who are sending money, why should they pay so much? Because this is money, hard earned money that goes to sustaining their families and, and, you know, bringing dignity in their lives. So we are committed to this when it comes to P2P, P2P, on P2P front, you know, today we are getting about 32 to 35 million Indian travelers every year who travel outside.

Ritesh Shukla 00:15:38  And as income levels in India are rising, are rising, more and more we travel, as per a McKinsey report, I think by mid to end or to the second half of next decade, about 90 million Indian tourists will travel annually for business holidays or, you know, other purposes. So now what we are looking at is we are looking at extending the domestic payment experience for these travelers when they go overseas, to be able to use their preferred app from UPI and scan and pay where they live in nine markets, including countries in our vicinity like Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, UAE, Singapore and Qatar. We are also live in markets like Mauritius, Cambodia that are of interest to Indian tourists, and we have a huge pipeline of markets that are of relevance to Indian tourists. So not only we are enabling these use cases, but we are also very, very, you know, thoughtful in the markets that we are targeting. So we are for P2P, we are targeting markets where there is presence of significant Indian diaspora, like expat workers, for example, markets in UAE.

Ritesh Shukla 00:16:46  sorry. Markets in GCC. Like UAE Qatar, Saudi. So we are focused on these markets at the same time. North America, Europe and you know Singapore. So these are places where there is enough Indian tourists, sorry, Indian expats who reside and they send money to India at the same time for outbound, we are looking at markets where there is significant presence of Indian students because the parents feel the need to send money for their sustenance and their college fees, so that those are the markets we are targeting for outbound, and that’s where we are working on for merchant payments. We are looking at the, the, the travel, you know, numbers of outbound travelers from India to respective markets. And here, you know, the top corridors are, countries in Gulf region, like we are the largest traveler to UAE in countries in Southeast Asia region. These are some of the prominent markets and then of course, Western Europe and and North America as well. But we see is that what we also are based is the research we did.

Ritesh Shukla 00:17:42  We also realized that Indians typically plan their vacation about 2 to 3 months in advance and like, you know, in Western world, and when you do your vacation in 2 to 3 months, you, you tend to, you know, focus more on regional travel. one is because of the, the currency, advantage. The other is, the, the visa policy. So for example, you know, Southeast Asian countries and countries in this region, Gulf region, also have a liberal visa policy for Indians. There are many countries we can travel. you know, visa free or visa on arrival. So we are focusing on these markets for creating P2P as well as p to m use cases.

Jens Seidl 00:18:19  Okay. And let’s talk about those two. And I’ll start with the, the outbound, the tourism aspect. I guess you must have been able to learn some lessons from what had already been done in Southeast Asia. Right? Because they’re between Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia and so on and so on. They had already been doing some work in interconnecting their QR code based Systems.

Jens Seidl 00:18:44  if there has that made it maybe a bit easier to to do this because it wasn’t completely brand new, or was it really a complete, separate new initiative that you were looking at there?

Ritesh Shukla 00:18:54  So it did help because, it’s not you don’t have to, you know, do a concept selling because it already exists. And if you look at the entire Asia, I think, because of the, because of the landscape, you know, the, the card based acceptance was not as deeply penetrated as it’s in, let’s say, Europe or or America. and that’s where, you know, the asset light acquiring model, which is QR based, which may be a dynamic or static, you know, it really helped, drive inclusion. And this is our own experience in India as well as its experience in most of the countries you mentioned. Thailand. So even Thailand, you know, you will find QR in the smallest or the street vendor. So it it kind of gave us an advantage because everybody is aware of how QR payment, you know, are carried out.

Ritesh Shukla 00:19:48  And at the same time, people are also aware that majority of the payments today in Asia are happening on QR. So so it did create that acceptance of of this opportunity. Having said that, you know, we are also doing a lot of heavy lifting in these corridors that we are integrating with because we are known for our tech capabilities. And India as a country is also, you know, very strong in tech domain. But as an organization, we and NPCI are also very, very strong in that area. So we are when we are connecting with other countries, I think there is a lot of heavy lifting we do which is which requires us to be able to read their QR format, you know, and to be able to, you know, we also have very, very, you know, different ways of settling with them. So we have very open kind of mindset when it comes to integrating and making some of these connections live. We do invest a lot in marketing, for, for and, you know, creating traction for, not only on India side with our users, but also in those markets.

Ritesh Shukla 00:20:50  So today, if you travel to, Singapore, you visit Little India. You will see prominent branding of UPI in those markets and encouraging Indian tourists to be able to pay through UPI. If you visit Nepal, Sri Lanka, you will find the same experience in these places at Marquee Merchants at prominent locations. There are, there is enough and more branding that encourages our tourists to be able to, you know, pull out their phones and scan and pay.

Jens Seidl 00:21:14  Okay. and with regards to the remittance space, what what were the biggest hurdles to actually progress that? Because what we hear consistently is when it comes to interlinking faster payment systems, the technology, it’s there. Right? It’s yes, there needs to be, some attention to detail. You need to to get this right. But it’s typically not the technology where the biggest hurdles are in making this work. What was your experience?

Ritesh Shukla 00:21:41  So I think before I answered that question, I also want to, you know, clearly put it on the table that what we are doing today is going to last for decades, if not century, you know.

Ritesh Shukla 00:21:52  So when you are doing something with a longer horizon in mind, you know, you are mentally prepared that there will be a few things here and there. What? But in terms of now coming to your question, I think there are a few areas that, you know, we find, you know, we need to work upon you can call them challenges as well. So one is each of these systems that we are connecting, you know, they are built differently. They are not built in a very standardized manner because they are built, they are built to, you know, cater to domestic payment needs. Now, payment needs in different countries vary. And this is where we also recognize the local, you know, flavor, the local requirements, the local dynamics. And we respect these, aspects of it. Now, now if you are building connections between two networks that have not been built with the same, you know, design or thinking. Then there is some variation that today exists, and you need to figure out a way to, to kind of do away with those variations.

Ritesh Shukla 00:22:52  It could be by way of building a mapper that, you know, helps, message translation for consumption of respective networks. There will be some variation in the scheme rules on the lifecycle management. So we kind of work very closely to, to find a middle ground and to create, you know, rules or, or tech integration that, you know, caters to the, the, the, the compliance requirements of both the markets that ensures that the user experience remains more or less same and at the same time is, is designed to build scale and adaption for future. so so that’s our approach. And of course, there are like I said, you know, the implementations are different. The way the speed of working is different. So we have to be mindful and respectful of that. But then again, we are not designing for tomorrow or the day after or this year. Next year we are designing for many, many decades to come. So, so these things, you know, we are are part of the game.

Ritesh Shukla 00:23:49  Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:23:50  Okay. And do you also see an opportunity here in in some of these initiatives that are happening around the world in already creating regional solutions. I mean, Nexus is probably the most recent example where Nexus is planning to interlink a number of, of geographies, not having all of these bilateral relationships, but a whole network, Africa is talking about similar things. You already have the European, the eurozone, the Eurosystem. So do you do you also see an opportunity that with these kind of developments, it will actually become easier to at some point connect the whole world?

Ritesh Shukla 00:24:32  You know, of course, RBI, our regulator, is one of the, D5 signatories to Nexus and as a as a as a country, as a regulator, as a payment ecosystem. We are committed to it and see there are 190 plus countries in the world. It will not be, you know, feasible practically, you know, doable for us to, to integrate with all countries. So, so this is where we intend to leverage these multilateral platforms as well.

Ritesh Shukla 00:25:03  But our strategy is to, you know, establish bilateral links with countries that, you know, generate significant flows and at the same time also use these multilateral platforms to, to create a vast network. and we are working in that direction, and, you know, we are very, very closely working with the Nexus team as well on this. we are also, in, deep discussions with the European Central Bank for integrating, TIPS Eurosystem with UPI. This is as an initiative is blessed by both the regulators RBI in India and ECB in Europe. So so we are. You know, like I said, having you know, this very diverse strategy for connecting markets that are of significant importance, significantly important, you know, from the from the existing flows perspective, we will look at bilateral and at the same time, we will be invested in these multilateral platforms as they build and as they grow. and we will leverage these platforms as well.

Jens Seidl 00:26:08  Makes perfect sense. Great. Well, let’s let’s stay on the global aspect, here, but from a different perspective.

Jens Seidl 00:26:15  You were mentioning that NPCI is also a technology company, and as I understand it, you are now engaging with a number of different countries in providing your technology stack and your technology know how to those countries as well. Can can you tell us a bit more about that?

Ritesh Shukla 00:26:34  Thank you. Then so what we are today looking at is if you look at, the transformation that a platform like UPI has delivered since 2016. And before I answer your question, I also want to take the opportunity to highlight certain numbers. You know, last month, UPI processed about 23 billion financial transactions. And, this probably makes it one of the largest, if not the largest, payment network in the world. So you would imagine you’re doing about 700 million transactions a day. and, with that scale and with the impact that it has created on the ground, when you when you talk of impact, you look at how it is formalizing the economic activity. When the economic activity is formalized, you know, how it leads to, better access to credit, better tax collection, better entrepreneurial, you know, success, fintech incubation, you know, better, Compliance.

Ritesh Shukla 00:27:35  And of course, cash displacement leads to savings on GDP front as well. So these benefits and the way UPI has grown in India are, you know, certainly, attracting attention from all over the world and, you know, as, the, the democracies across the world are looking at delivering on their national agenda, on their electoral promises. They have realized that the digital payments or the digital assets can be a big enabler. so this is where there is a lot of curiosity and there is genuine appreciation to what, India stack and UPI per se, within the cashless layer of India stack has delivered. Now we are in active discussions with many countries across the world. we have three four that are in public domain, such as Peru, Namibia, Trinidad and Tobago, where we are, they’re not only the technical partner, but also we share business knowhow, we share the same rules, we share the governance model. So our, you know, whatever we have learned in the process of building and operating UPI here, we are putting it on the table for our partner countries to to kind of take upon and, you know, do do their own thing.

Ritesh Shukla 00:28:48  and the brand promises, sovereignty, you know, localization of, of efforts and, you know, complete control, and, in this process, you know, we are getting deep satisfaction because it’s all about, democratizing access and, you know, giving dignity to people in respective countries. So we are working in that direction with full on commitment. The other aspect to highlight here is, since we own the patent for this. So we are, you know, offering it to two countries. We are one of the biggest, consumers of open source technology. So in the end, you know, given the the platform consumes open source technologies, the long term cost of maintaining and running the platform also makes it exciting for other countries to embrace something like this. So in a nutshell, if you see the proven performance and the benefits that it has delivered here in a big country like India, 1.4 billion and the technology and the complete business knowhow that comes with it is something which is compelling proposition for any democratic country that’s interested in driving the the genuine, you know, ground level transformation and interested in uplifting people.

Ritesh Shukla 00:30:01  So so that’s what we are, you know, working on. And we are very proud of what we have achieved so far.

Jens Seidl 00:30:07  Absolutely. And let’s spend a little bit more time on, on something you said there about sovereignty, because that is something we hear consistently around the world at the moment. One of the the top priorities for regulators, central banks around the world, is to make sure that their critical payment infrastructure, is something that they can control and where they are sovereign in operating that infrastructure. And there have been concerns that payment technology and digital technology can be weaponized in different geopolitical developments. Right. So you’re saying that what you’re providing, there is something that you provide to a country that can make it their own. They won’t depend on you then in operating this infrastructure going forward? Did I understand that correctly?

Ritesh Shukla 00:30:58  Absolutely. And, you know, we want them to be totally empowered in terms of managing their domestic payment needs. And we are even going a step beyond, so we are also, you know, helping these countries customize, you know, functionalities, capabilities to their own needs.

Ritesh Shukla 00:31:16  So, for example, in one of the countries, where they are using UPI, platform, UPI stack to create their own payment platform, and of course, they won’t call it UPI. They will be calling it something else. we are building functionalities that don’t exist in India. So not only, you know, our approach is not to offer, you know, something that today exists in our country and then, like, you know, offering them something that today exists in the rack that I have, but we are also working closely with them for customization. We are, you know, passing them knowledge, doing, you know, trainings for them to be completely independent of us. we are not in the business of operating these platforms. We want them to operate. We are, you know, we are hosting, you know, dialogues not only with the team that’s going to host these solutions, but also with the larger ecosystem. You know, I have myself, you know, interacted with the, fintech founders from these countries, with the large banks, you know, showing them what it would take to make UPI a success in their country.

Ritesh Shukla 00:32:22  And so, so we have very, very deep traction. It’s all about, you know, making the other country be sovereign. it’s it’s it’s it’s genuinely good thing and it’s very much aligned to our purpose.

Jens Seidl 00:32:33  Okay. And, well, we. Another topic that’s been discussed a lot at the moment, of course, is, tokenization, particularly stablecoins. since the GENIUS Act in, in the US. are you seeing a lot of interest in that as an alternative solution as well as you talk about, your technology stack as a solution, or are these really completely two separate things? Are people considering the faster payment system as one thing? They need to progress anyway, and stablecoin is just another flavor of how international payments could be made. Or do you see them in in direct competition with each other?

Ritesh Shukla 00:33:17  no, I think that’s a that’s a very, very, relevant question in today’s time. So if you look at, India as a market, we have we our regulator is, is ready with the central bank digital currency, or CBDC, as it is called.

Ritesh Shukla 00:33:34  if I, if I read correctly, the latest numbers, I think around 12 million people are participating in our are active in the CBDC space. and it’s, retail by commercial banks. And, you know, if you were here, I would have shown it, shown the app to you on my phone. it it works, beautifully for for, for retail as well. in, in India, actually, you can scan a QR and pay through your CBDC wallet. So, so so that’s something that today exists, as a, as a, as a company, as a nation. I think we are very excited about tokenization. you know, there is a lot of work that’s happening here. and, you know, you could, we imagine, how we are looking at, you know, people in our country is, we are looking at, you know, tokenizing, probably deposits, security holdings and land. Just imagine a situation where, an entrepreneur from, let’s say northeastern part of India, carries this tokenized landholding to a bank in western part of the country and takes working capital against it.

Ritesh Shukla 00:34:40  So so we are looking at those possibilities in future. And it’s all happening here, in a very fast paced and organized manner. so, so so that’s what I have to say on the CBDC as well as tokenization front. I think our regulator has very, very clearly expressed their views on the stablecoins, so I won’t delve into that.

Jens Seidl 00:34:59  Okay, great. All right. Well, maybe to wrap up, how do you see the the future now? And what’s your vision for the future of NPCI International in this new global financial ecosystem? That because it is new, right. We’re not talking about legacy systems anymore. There’s a lot of new technology coming to the market, particularly faster payment systems. How do you see the future in this global financial ecosystem, and what role is NPCI International going to play in that?

Ritesh Shukla 00:35:35  So if you look at our organization’s history and the the innovative approach that we have taken, we have kept consumers at the center. And I think that’s also one of the reasons for the success that we have achieved.

Ritesh Shukla 00:35:49  Keep keep things simple, but ensure that there is deep trust in the platforms that you run in a very efficient manner with operational excellence. So these are some of the things that we are very much obsessed with, and we’ll continue to do. So when it comes to NPCI International, I think we have done a beautiful job in creating a less cash society here in India. You won’t if I tell you, I think you would be surprised that I don’t remember the last time I visited ATM. I don’t carry cash at all. And so we want to replicate this in cross-border, you know, domain as well. So imagine a situation where an Indian tourist goes to the, market and they just use their smartphone and, you know, scan the QR code and go about being a, you know, digital traveler without the need of, withdrawing cash or carrying cash. At the same time, we also want to present India to the rest of the world in the same manner. So, so so imagine a situation where tourists from anywhere in the world come to India and they are able to scan the UPI QR, which is everywhere.

Ritesh Shukla 00:36:52  I think they have about 700 million plus shares across the country. So imagine a tourist from anywhere in the world comes to India and you know, they are able to scan UPI, QR and make payments. We have we last year in a global fintech festival, we announced a partnership with PayPal in this area. And we have many more such partnerships that are going to come in the near future. So we want to make the the cashless, the travel, the experience payment experience for visitors to India, also cashless. So so that’s that’s the that’s what, you know, we are looking at in the near future.

Jens Seidl 00:37:24  Okay. Fascinating. I admit, from a personal perspective, I’m still a fan of cash. I still use cash. but of course, I’m also a big fan of digital payments because they’re so convenient. I think the future will still have both. Also because of resilience, right? As cash is still the ultimate solution if everything else fails. So I think both will continue to coexist.

Jens Seidl 00:37:49  But yeah, definitely there’s there is a trend to displace cash payments with with digital payments for sure.

Ritesh Shukla 00:37:56  And if I can add you’re absolutely right. We have never said we want cashless society. We have said we want less cash and we want to give different options to the citizens. That’s why, you know, in addition to UPI, you also have a CBDC that could exist. I said 12 million people are part of it. So it’s all about, you know, giving options to your citizens and you know, in a, in a, in a democracy, you know, vibrancy is, is is very important. You know, people think differently, so you have to respect and give them solution that suits their needs.

Jens Seidl 00:38:28  Absolutely. But but that aside, I mean, you’re painting a very exciting picture for your company and the things that you’re involved with. And again, looking at your track record and what we’ve delivered so far in a very short period of time as well to, to be fair, this this is the the classical hockey stick growth story that you represent here.

Jens Seidl 00:38:49  I’ve got no doubts that you will continue on that journey.

Ritesh Shukla 00:38:53  No, I think thanks for, you know, acknowledging what we have achieved. It’s, it’s it’s a teamwork. And we have a great team here in place. you know, we have, young folks who are driving the growth deeply engaged with our customers, obsessed with the, you know, their requirements and, fulfilling their needs. so I think we are on the in the right direction, and but we there is lots to be achieved. And, as they say, this is a momentum business. So we are, you know, restless. We want to bring in so much energy and focus so that, you know, in future, we just, you know, have to give a direction.

Jens Seidl 00:39:33  Here, here. Great. I think that’s that’s a great statement to to wrap up for today. Ritesh, thank you so much for for joining the podcast today. I really appreciate that.

Ritesh Shukla 00:39:42  Thank you. And it’s an absolute pleasure and I wish you and the team the very best.

Jens Seidl 00:39:49  Thank you. All right. Well that concludes today’s episode. please do follow. Like do whatever you need to do on your podcast platform to make sure you don’t miss any future episodes. Thank you all and talk soon.