Redesigning the Euro Banknote – Doris Schneeberger [Season 3 | Episode #17]

Jens Seidl 00:00:33  Welcome to another episode of the Exchange Payments, Innovation and Technology. My name is Jens Seidl. I’m your host for today, and I’m here at the beautiful European Central Bank building in Frankfurt with Doris Schneeberger. Welcome, Doris.

Doris Schneeberger 00:00:46  You’re welcome. Welcome also to the ECB.

Jens Seidl 00:00:48  Thank you so much. I always love coming. It’s such a beautiful building. I think they’ve done a great job. And also incorporating the the Old Course, Mark teller, the old market Hall and the new building. So yeah, it’s always a pleasure.

Doris Schneeberger 00:01:02  It’s very impressive as a monument, I would say. And it’s always nice to get in here.

Jens Seidl 00:01:06  Yeah, absolutely. So before we kick off, if you listen to some of our episodes, you’ll know there’s some semi personal questions coming. You don’t know what they are, but it’s we’re not going to put you on the spot. No worries. start really simple. Tea or coffee?

Doris Schneeberger 00:01:21  Coffee a lot, a lot.

Jens Seidl 00:01:25  How do you take it?

Doris Schneeberger 00:01:25  Black sugar or very German with milk.

Jens Seidl 00:01:30  Okay. then do you have a favorite holiday destination? A city or country or type of holiday? Maybe?

Doris Schneeberger 00:01:38  Being an Austrian, I love going back to Austria. It’s just really more going back to meet family friends. I come from Tirol, so a skiing area, so it’s really everything that has to do with mountains is where I really put my heart in.

Jens Seidl 00:01:51  Okay, I, I can’t ski, I tried, failed miserably. Are you a really good skier? What’s what’s your level, the black slope or whatever it’s called.

Doris Schneeberger 00:01:59  I’m a sunshine skier, I would say, because being brought up in an area where you can go skiing every day, you only go when there is nice snow and nice weather.

Doris Schneeberger 00:02:08  So that’s what I would put. I’m not a fantastic skier, but I really like going on the mountains.

Jens Seidl 00:02:13  Okay, nice. And then, is there a favorite author that you have? Someone who’s books you really enjoy? doesn’t have to be the favorite, but.

Doris Schneeberger 00:02:25  Yeah, no, no, I’m a bit very German based in my reading, I would say. And my all time favorite is Thomas Mann. So I mean, this is really with The Boondocks. So I think this is something that really touched me very early and I still love it. And the nice thing is now there is also a movie about Thomas Mann in the in the cinemas that won a prize in Cannes. So I think this is something on my to do list to see this. I think it’s called Fatherland.

Jens Seidl 00:02:51  So interesting. But full disclosure, I studied German literature, so I will definitely check out that movie as well. I do appreciate Thomas Mann.

Doris Schneeberger 00:03:00  Yes.

Jens Seidl 00:03:00  Not necessarily.

Doris Schneeberger 00:03:01  Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:03:02  Great. All right, well, let’s talk about shop.

Jens Seidl 00:03:04  So before we jump in and for those that are listening, sorry. Watching this on on video, you’ll see there’s some props here on the table as well. And we’ll get there. But maybe if you could start with introducing yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself, where you come from, what you do now for the ECB.

Doris Schneeberger 00:03:21  Yeah I’m Doris Schneeberger, director banknotes here at the ECB. originally I come from Austria. I had a long career in the Austrian central bank in cash and payments and equity management. And then I came over to the ECB around ten years ago, really working in the directorate banknotes and resuming the responsibilities now also for the redesign project.

Jens Seidl 00:03:42  Okay, well, redesign project. Here we go. Why redesign? we hear so often that. Yeah, cash usage is declining. People aren’t using cash is more. Why even bother with a redesign. What’s what’s what’s the point?

Doris Schneeberger 00:03:59  Yeah. At one point, this is always key is we have to keep the banknotes secure and safe.

Doris Schneeberger 00:04:04  So everyone has to trust the banknotes in his or her hands are just genuine. And therefore we have to invest into technology and update the banknotes. So I think this is what central banks do all over the world. And now, 25 years after the introduction of the euro, the euro is still quite young. We thought it’s a moment to look is the visual appearance of the banknotes that we have. Is it still fit for the future? So that’s why we took a moment, paused and looked okay, what can we do? We listened to the public. We thought, okay, how can we shape the future for the year or the next 25 years? In a way, and this is why we embarked on the journey of the redesign of really the visual change of the appearance of the banknotes.

Jens Seidl 00:04:48  Okay. And with regards to the part cash usage declining, why? Why does cash still matter? Is there Do you see a future where cash has disappeared or why is cash still important?

Doris Schneeberger 00:04:59  When you look into the data that we have for the euro area, it’s still around half of all transactions at the point of sales that are conducted in cash.

Doris Schneeberger 00:05:09  So it’s really huge, the amounts of cash that you need that the transactions that take place. So it’s not negligible. What we see, it’s declining. So you have some countries that are relatively low already around 20% of transactions. But also this is still a huge number of relatively small transactions that take place. And we have to ensure that for these transactions we have the cash available. That works first for manual checking but also for machine authentication.

Jens Seidl 00:05:37  So I guess I guess it’s fair to say in the euro system, there’s still very different cash usage profiles from country to country as well, right? So with the Netherlands for instance, where it’s relatively low, but other countries where it’s still very high.

Doris Schneeberger 00:05:51  Yes, we have the Netherlands and Finland on the lower bound. But then we have countries like I don’t know. Italy, Malta, really on the higher bound, where it’s really much more implemented still in daily lives. And how you pay. And also what we see is it’s not only the way people pay.

Doris Schneeberger 00:06:09  More than two thirds of people say that they want to have cash as an option, so nobody wants cash to disappear. And this is also something that we have now seen with our survey. When we launched it in July, it became more or less viral. And people really have an opinion about cash and they want it to stay and they want to shape it. So it’s really interesting the conversation it sparks.

Jens Seidl 00:06:31  Interesting. Well, you mentioned the survey and we’re talking about the new euro banknote design. But what is the process then how do you actually design a new banknote. What steps do you need to go through.

Doris Schneeberger 00:06:43  It’s a relatively long process that we’re in. We have started it in 21 where we announced that we want to do something on the redesign, but then we started with listening to the public to hear what you think about the current series, what is the pros and cons and what they would like to see. Then we worked on the themes where we also then had a public survey where people could engage and let us know what they like.

Doris Schneeberger 00:07:06  And the outcome of this survey, where around 360,000 people participated, was in a way that European culture resonates with them in nature and for nature. It was rivers and birds. So that was one step that we took in 23. And then we worked further on how to illustrate this. And this is what you now see on the current designs. We have for both themes, the illustration, the motifs fixed so the designers had to work with the motifs as they are. So it’s either for European culture, you have on the reverse shared cultural spaces. So like the library, a school, a public square, and then European personalities that fit to this public square or to the library and and people. These are people that really tell a European story. So they have lived in different countries, they have moved between countries, and they have really shaped the culture that we have.

Jens Seidl 00:08:02  Maria Callas now on the five, is it?

Doris Schneeberger 00:08:04  Yes. I was a very international person. So not only European born in the US, but with Greek citizenship, Italian citizenship lived in France.

Doris Schneeberger 00:08:13  So it’s really the Europeans period of traveling, of moving around, of being present, not in one country only, but really on a broader scale. Okay. And for the rivers and birds we have, we start from source to sea. So really we try to tell the story from the water where it starts, and then we follow it to the sea and also have typical birds connected to it. And on the reverse, you have the European institutions that are also protecting the euro and also the nature around. And this is how we try also to shape the European messages with further.

Jens Seidl 00:08:48  ECP building is on the 20. Is it.

Doris Schneeberger 00:08:50  The ECB is on the 20. Yes, but all the other institutions are also there. From the Parliament to the Court of Auditors. So not everyone will know them. So maybe.

Jens Seidl 00:08:59  And what? I have voted already, I’m not going to disclose my vote here, but it’s too complex a vote anyway.

Doris Schneeberger 00:09:05  It’s not a real vote to express your opinions, what you like and what you don’t like.

Jens Seidl 00:09:09  Exactly. Which I think is also good because it’s so difficult to pick one favorite here, right? And by asking on each of the different designs what you like, what you like less, etc., it’s very smart survey design and clearly had some very smart people working on that. So what I love is that not only the themes are different, but the style is so different from very modern to more classical. So people can really pick and choose what they prefer.

Doris Schneeberger 00:09:37  Yeah, the designers had really worked around half a year on our design brief and on the motifs, and they really put a lot of ideas and thinking. And so when you look a bit closer to the different proposals, You see a lot of thinking there. And that’s amazing. What is there? So it’s not on first glance. On first glance, you either like or don’t like it. When on a second glance you really see the ideas and what they have in mind and what message they want to get across. So it’s really interesting to take a closer look.

Jens Seidl 00:10:08  Yeah. And the survey is still open.

Doris Schneeberger 00:10:10  The survey is still open. We close, 21st of September. we have more than 8 million already participating. So it’s really huge interest. We saw it also on social media. A lot of interest, a lot of sharing. But also it’s nice because you have a lot of discussions in families. What we hear whether younger kids even tell the parents, oh, have you seen I have already given my opinion. So it’s really also, reflecting that it’s not something that disappears in a way, and that this symbol of Europe is important for younger generations as well.

Jens Seidl 00:10:45  Okay. Well, that’s 8 million. That’s very good because it’s really huge. a concern with these type of servers. It’s always that you get the nerds right. The bank notes experts and the, collectors may be to to opine, but maybe there are a million like that in Europe, but I doubt it. But you just described that the family is talking, the kids getting involved, social media picking up on this.

Jens Seidl 00:11:09  This is great. Right. That’s what you want?

Doris Schneeberger 00:11:11  No, it was especially after the unveiling in July. I mean, the weekend after was crazy, really. Social media, young people, influencers sharing and discussing. And so it was really within a week we had more than 4 million participation participants in the survey. So it was incredible. And I’m grateful that people really take the time, 5 to 10 minutes to have their say.

Jens Seidl 00:11:33  Yeah. And I guess again, it shows that cash still matters very much. Yes. Right. Otherwise, people won’t spend 5 or 10 minutes to think about what the next design should look like.

Doris Schneeberger 00:11:44  Yeah, I think it’s the one symbol for Europe that everyone can have in his or her hand, and it’s really something that is like a business card that you take. And when you travel the world, it’s the euro and it stands a bit for your identity as well. So I think people see that and they want to have a say on that.

Jens Seidl 00:12:00  Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:12:01  Yeah. Well the euro travels around the world, right. We don’t have any statistics on that. And we don’t know where exactly the euro is, but we know it’s used in so many countries outside the of the eurozone.

Doris Schneeberger 00:12:11  Yeah. From what we see it’s around half of the circulation being outside of the euro area. So it’s really immense what we have out there.

Jens Seidl 00:12:18  That is big. I think it’s not too long ago. It’s set around a third I think now.

Doris Schneeberger 00:12:23  I think it’s increasing.

Jens Seidl 00:12:25  So we’re used up two thirds. So maybe you’re close behind the US dollar there.

Doris Schneeberger 00:12:30  Yeah we’re getting there in a way. But we also see that from the circulation out there from the 31 billion banknotes that we have around only 20% we need for payment transactions. So it’s really not the maturity we need for that. So the rest is really store of value or circulating worldwide. So it’s really something more than a means of payment.

Jens Seidl 00:12:49  Yeah. Do you have any anecdotal evidence whether, especially high value notes and are also used to facilitate trade? Because we’ve seen that a lot in Africa with, with US dollars, where cross-border trade is being done in US dollars.

Jens Seidl 00:13:03  It’s the common stable currency between some of the countries. Have you seen any evidence that there’s also larger trade supported by cash, or it’s difficult to get those insights right.

Doris Schneeberger 00:13:16  This is not what we have at statistics. What we have is statistics from wholesale banks where they sell and ship the banknotes to. But further we don’t have the statistics on.

Jens Seidl 00:13:24  Yeah. Fair enough. Okay. So 21st of September you said the the survey is closing. Then you’re going to review the survey. What’s the next step after that.

Doris Schneeberger 00:13:34  Yeah. Besides this survey we also have a representative survey running to ensure that we really cover all age groups. All countries that everyone is represented in the outcome. in parallel, we also do a technical assessment in a way to say, okay, we have now creative sketches for all the designs, but we have to sit down and see, okay, which one has to change a lot because of the integration of security features of the printing technology that is implied and which ones not, so that really that it’s clear one might really look similar, very similar.

Doris Schneeberger 00:14:07  One might not look. We have also seen it with the first series of banknotes where it was a banknote designer designing the sketches, the first sketches, but still it had changed a lot on the way. So this is something that we have to keep in mind. They will not want to one look as they are now because they come without tactility, without the security features integrated. So all that and we have to give this expertise also to the governing Council. So the Governing Council will have the technical assessment, the outcome of the service, the detailed report of the design contest jury that selected these ten winning designs. And then hopefully by the end of the year, they can make up their mind on what the look of the future era will be.

Jens Seidl 00:14:48  Okay, so and and again, for those of you that are watching this, I’m going to reach here over the table. There’s two little, I’m Team European. Oh there’s stickers. Wow. Of course. And I’m team River and birds. I will disclose I’m Team European culture like those Maria Callas.

Jens Seidl 00:15:08  I just had to look at Maria Callas and and I was sold. but, what’s what’s the process on this? For instance, are we going to go for the river and birds and the European culture theme? And then within that, is it more an artistic style or classical style? Are you just going to go with what the public decide, or is there a more elaborate process and to to decide on that factor as well? Understand the technology. That’s a whole different story anyway.

Doris Schneeberger 00:15:35  No, I think it’s the different factors that I mentioned. So you have the outcome of the surveys. We have the technology assessment. We have the design contest jury report. So that is also published. And but there is more details that we can provide to the governing Council. And then it’s also their political assessment how they want to shape the euro for the future. So it all comes together. But it will be an interesting discussion that I’ll see upcoming for sure.

Jens Seidl 00:16:01  And what about the aspect that the euro system 21 countries, right.

Jens Seidl 00:16:07  That cannot be easy to to get everybody’s interests and everybody’s views represented in there as well. What’s what’s the mechanism there? How does that work? Are you all getting into a big room and hash it out?

Doris Schneeberger 00:16:20  Yes. The Governing Council really has one member per member state, and so they really have to agree then in the end on what they want to do. But also throughout the process of redesigning, we always had expert groups where we had members from each member state. So it’s not only that we wanted to have different expertise there from a neuroscientist, a psychologist, banknote designer, whatever, but we also wanted to have this diversity in country so that we really have different views. What resonates with which countries already to have the groundwork done in a way, and maybe important, is also the jury that was also representing all the 21 member states or countries. They did not know who is behind the designs when they assessed that it was a blind assessment, so they could not say, oh, I want to favor this.

Doris Schneeberger 00:17:07  I don’t know Luxembourgish design because I’m a Luxembourgish person. So it was really a blind assessment and only focusing on on really the creative output that they had on the table. So I think it worked well. So we have a very diverse outcome we have now with the ten designs, seven countries. We have, four female designers, six male designers. So it’s the lead designers. They have a team behind. So it’s really in the outcome diverse. And I really appreciate that we could come to that outcome.

Jens Seidl 00:17:38  Fascinating. Well my next question was going to be, when is, I’m not going to hold you to a date here, right? But just from from the timeline perspective, when, when are we going to hold the first real banknote in our hands? When can the public actually start taking these out of ATMs?

Doris Schneeberger 00:17:56  Yeah, this will take a while. So, okay, first we need a decision how it should look like, because then we can start the technical work. So that’s the thing.

Doris Schneeberger 00:18:04  it takes us some years really to prepare. And what sometimes the public also forgets. It takes us also around a year to adapt the machinery out there. Because as soon as you get the first banknote from an ATM, you have to be sure that all the vending machines in the euro system are able to take the banknotes. So this this really takes a while. And it’s not like, oh yeah, we just printed and here you go. So it’s really a lot of testing involves a lot of adaptation. And it’s not only the banknote industry in in the closer settings like the printers and the cities, but it’s really the whole vending industry that has to adapt.

Jens Seidl 00:18:42  Yeah. Well, our our podcast has a lot of experts from the cash world listening. So on that particular point, do you also anticipate that beyond software updates, there might be hardware upgrades required for machinery, or is it too early to say.

Doris Schneeberger 00:18:57  It’s a bit early, but we really hope that we can live with software upgrades, really to ensure that the costs are kept under control.

Doris Schneeberger 00:19:03  Yeah, we have seen it with the second series of Euro banknotes. The change of dimension was really causing quite some difficulties. So this is also why we will keep the sizes of the banknotes the same. This is already some factor that helps. for the public, it’s important we keep the color scheme as it is for the recognizability. So we try to keep a lot of things as they are, but we hope that we can live with software updates.

Jens Seidl 00:19:29  Yeah, yeah, I remember that, the changing the form factor, that is a big, big drop. So good. That’s good news. But also I think what I like about the new design, there’s more, inclusivity factors now, right? There’s tactile features for the, the visually impaired. So can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Doris Schneeberger 00:19:53  Yeah, we already have at the current banknotes, the tactile marks on the sides so that every denomination can be really easily recognized. And also when you have the print, you feel it.

Doris Schneeberger 00:20:04  But we will for the future banknotes have for the first time Braille like marks. So really that it’s even easier to recognize which denomination you have. it’s something that we are really, keen on. We have worked with the European Union on that. They really would like to see that. And I hope it really works out with the printing technology we have, so that it’s really on the long or when the banknote is longer in circulation, that it’s really that people can still feel it, but with the wear and tear it, it’s difficult sometimes. So it’s something that we have to acknowledge.

Jens Seidl 00:20:35  Yeah. No that’s great. And from a personal perspective. My dad, he’s 86 years old. He’s losing his eyesight. This is so important again. And I think that’s sorry to look back to the question of why I need cash. I think there’s so many people that still rely on cash and do need these features to still use it. So I think that’s a great step in the right direction. And thanks for making sure that’s happening.

Doris Schneeberger 00:20:58  Yeah, we have seen really that the color scheme is very important, especially for people that don’t see so well. So they do really differentiate. And so that’s what we really work on. That makes it clearer.

Jens Seidl 00:21:09  Yeah. Good. before we move off this topic, can I ask whether you have a personal favorite or would you rather not say.

Doris Schneeberger 00:21:20  It’s a difficult question? I like a few very much. But also, I said, the closer you look at the different designs, the more you start appreciating the creative ideas behind. So it’s not a straightforward choice that you can make. So it’s really also for me, it’s good that the survey offers you a lot of options, what you like and what, So that you can give more than one choice. Yes.

Jens Seidl 00:21:40  Yeah. I’m glad you’re saying that, too, because I felt the same way. I started voting and said, oh, yeah, now this is it. This is my favorite. Then I went on to the next one, said, oh, okay.

Jens Seidl 00:21:49  What is it though?

Doris Schneeberger 00:21:50  Yeah, no.

Jens Seidl 00:21:51  It’s done some amazing work.

Doris Schneeberger 00:21:52  That’s also why I think it’s good when you spend a few moments before going into the survey, on the overview on our website, just to see what is really that speaks to me.

Jens Seidl 00:22:01  So yeah, and I did go back in the survey at one point. Oh, no, actually, let me tell you a little bit.

Doris Schneeberger 00:22:08  Oh that’s really.

Jens Seidl 00:22:08  Yeah.

Doris Schneeberger 00:22:09  But really ten very creative proposals. So.

Jens Seidl 00:22:14  Absolutely great. so changing gears a little bit. when you’re done with that, there’s going to be a whole new series of coins.

Doris Schneeberger 00:22:23  As you know, we are not responsible for coins. So we have the European Commission doing that job. So I mean, they are responsible on that one. So they are we are just observers in the in the game.

Jens Seidl 00:22:33  Okay. But are you responsible for coin circulation and coin production sits somewhere. But does the circulation come under yourself.

Doris Schneeberger 00:22:41  To a very limited part? We are approving the coin issuance volume, so to avoid monetary financing, but it’s really just the value chain that we approach and improve.

Doris Schneeberger 00:22:53  But everything on the visual appearance on the on on the bank coin, sorry, it’s really on the member states and the commission to agree.

Jens Seidl 00:23:01  Yeah. Well, I also wanted to ask about coin because coin often gets forgotten when people talk about cash. They’re so focused on the the banknotes and we hear not so much in Europe, to be honest. But in many other countries we hear how they’re struggling to repatriate coin to get coin out of those jars or piggy banks or whatever it might be, where the coin is sitting, and that they have to mint too many new coins, actually, for what is actually needed for the transactional use of coin. Do you see similar things happening in Europe?

Doris Schneeberger 00:23:30  Yeah, we have it for the one and two cent coins. I mean, there is a lot of Outgoing flows, but hardly. These coins are coming back, and you have a lot of countries that have already introduced the routing rules, so they really already abolished more or less these coins. I mean, I think naturally with 25 years of the euro, just the value of a $0.01 and two cent has gone down dramatically.

Doris Schneeberger 00:23:54  So its use case is probably questionable.

Jens Seidl 00:23:57  Yeah. What very personal. You know, as a European citizen, I don’t understand why so many people don’t don’t, don’t get the principle of rounding right, rounding up or rounding down. Statistically, you’ll be okay if you remove ones.

Doris Schneeberger 00:24:14  Yeah, we have seen it with the examples that it worked well and didn’t contribute to inflation. What we’ve seen, but I think it’s more an emotional connection that you have the prices still with 189899. And this is just how the supermarkets are just working also in a way.

Jens Seidl 00:24:30  Yeah. Well, there’s even the German proverb that in Is the word so in English. Who doesn’t value the penny? Isn’t worth the euro. So yeah, it’s not.

Doris Schneeberger 00:24:43  Even here in Germany. You’re seeing more and more people at. When they pay at the supermarket. Not taking the sands back. So just saying. Okay. Keep it. So that’s more what I observe when I go shopping here. Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:24:56  Okay, good. then again, going back to the banknotes coin, we touched on that.

Jens Seidl 00:25:06  Not your your full responsibility, so that’s fine. and being a bit more, less of the public concern, but more for the industry. we’re hearing that the supply chain is quite stressed at the moment. I mean, we’ve seen supply chain stress across every industry following the pandemic, then following wars. So, do you see issues, supply chain related issues? Are you doing anything to manage at least the risk even if you don’t see them yet. What’s your thinking around that?

Doris Schneeberger 00:25:36  Yeah, our focus has shifted there. Also with all this crisis is on that we are facing. I mean, it’s just the pandemic was our first call to action, I would say really where we had seen, demand and supply shocks in a way. So I would say, I think that was the moment where we really started working on and seeing how we should look. But then also we had the Russian war, we had the energy crisis so connected to that. So there were a lot of incidents and crisis situations where we have learned that we have to look into it, and we are closely doing it with our accredited manufacturers to really see.

Doris Schneeberger 00:26:12  And we’re also doing a more or less stress testing with them in a way, really, to guarantee that the crucial materials are there and available. And from what we see, we are quite happy with how our partners work and we can really ensure that it’s guaranteed. But yeah, it’s something that we have to focus on and we continue working on.

Jens Seidl 00:26:33  And I guess the other challenge is I know that’s still a time away, but when you introduce a new series, you don’t want to hold too much of a reserve stock in your old designs, right? You don’t want to throw away a lot of it’s not cheap to print banknotes. You don’t want to throw them away. So managing that, that’s not trivial.

Doris Schneeberger 00:26:50  So this is also what we currently look into. How do we manage the stocks when we get closer. How do we manage the dual circulation period where both series will circulate? Because we will only come up with 1 or 2 two denominations at once. So we will not have a big bang.

Doris Schneeberger 00:27:06  We will start with two and then come slowly with the others over time. But it will be a while until we have really efficiently used the stocks of the old series and then can really come to the final that we only have a new series out there.

Jens Seidl 00:27:19  Yeah, and I guess from a resilience point of view, to make sure that you actually have the capacity and capability to print enough banknotes, you’re really well positioned in the euro system, right? Can you tell us a little bit about how that structure?

Doris Schneeberger 00:27:33  Yeah, the euro system is very specific compared to some other countries because we have many printing works we have around. I think at the moment 11 printing works accredited means they are all ready to print. and they are all able to print. So that means also when we have a new banknote, we ensure that all of them can do that. That’s also a roll out process, but it helps us on the resilience point. So whenever something happens in one country, the other is still up and running.

Doris Schneeberger 00:28:02  So it’s really something that helps. It helps us also on the stock side, because we have all the central banks having their logistically stocks. So it’s not that we are dependent on one only. So it’s really a lot of resilience in built.

Jens Seidl 00:28:15  Yeah. And it’s interesting. And I’ll take a bit more of a global perspective now as well. not everyone is in that comfortable position right. Some rely on their own state printworks, others rely on commercial printers, but we heard anecdotally that there’s been a rush on banknotes, almost. There’s been a lot of banknote orders in the last few months. Last year or so probably also. Well, I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I’ll ask you about that. Is that maybe also linked to the crises that are happening at the moment? You mentioned the war in Russia. There’s the war in the Middle East going on. There’s the energy crisis. Do you think these things, again drive up that demand in wanting to hold reserve stocks?

Doris Schneeberger 00:29:01  Yeah.

Doris Schneeberger 00:29:01  I cannot speak for the others for the euro. We have seen slightly increased demand but not putting us to a different level. So our demand is between three, 4 or 5 billion banknotes. And this is relatively stable. So here we don’t see really a peak up but it’s also not declining. So what is also what was the fear at some point that after Covid, after all this, the hoarding maybe that takes place that we would not need banknotes. But this has stabilized and we are coming to normal. Banknote demands, I would say.

Jens Seidl 00:29:32  Okay. Yeah. And again, this is so interesting about this. It could just be a timing issue, right? Yeah. and I hear that from the industry as well that you get these peaks and troughs, right. That you get times where there’s not many orders, and then a lot of orders come in from countries around the world. So that’s that’s also, I think, one of the challenges for the industry to, to figure out how to normalize this a bit more and use capacity better.

Doris Schneeberger 00:29:58  So we have tried for the euro system to normalize over more years, but it’s just impossible because you don’t know what happens in which year. And you cannot plan ahead so much because we already have a three year planning horizon anyway. But to go further, it’s really making it very difficult and unreliable.

Jens Seidl 00:30:16  Yeah. Well, it’s I will make a shameless plug now because we’re bringing the The Currency conference to Berlin, next year, and it’s going to be definitely on the agenda there to talk about that because it is a concern. And we hear that there’s now it’s almost like you’re buying a very rare exclusive car at times where you have to wait for two years to to get the car. And there’s no long wait times, partly as well to, to get currency. So it’s it becomes an increasing concern if we need to react quickly to some peaks. The capacity constraints might not allow us to do that.

Doris Schneeberger 00:30:52  Capacity constraints. And a banknote is not like just plug and play. I mean, it needs preparation time.

Doris Schneeberger 00:30:57  So that’s really something that the industry also has to factor in always.

Jens Seidl 00:31:01  Yeah, absolutely. Okay, great. so well, let’s let’s, wrap up, conscious of your time. I don’t want to take up too much of your time, but maybe again, taking a couple of steps back here. This is great. All of this work that you’re doing, looking forward to to see what the final result is, but more of an outlook on where do you see cash going? Where do you think? And limited to the euro system. Where do you think cash is going to be in ten, 20, 30 years? I don’t. Very hard to predict, but at least the direction of travel.

Doris Schneeberger 00:31:44  I think cash will be there. So this is something. It will not disappear. So whatever is said about the cashless society, I think most countries have already taken a step back to say whatever technology we have, we want cash to stay. Cash is important. It has really the inclusivity. It provides the freedom.

Doris Schneeberger 00:32:01  It’s the choice that you just provide to the public with it. So it will be there. It will be used less on a day to day basis. I think it’s a bit like that. You will have some banknotes with you, maybe on the back of your wallet, your mobile phone or whatever. So just in case you need it. But you might not pay everything as you do now with cash.

Jens Seidl 00:32:26  Yeah. Yeah. And maybe also to address some of these conspiracy theories. All the digital euro is only going to come to replace cash. What would you say to that.

Doris Schneeberger 00:32:36  No. The digital euro will complement cash in a in a nice way because we see that around 20% of the daily shopping is now online. And cash is not an option there. So I think as a central bank, that’s a call to duty in a way also to offer something that you can use there. to provide a European solution also in the digital sphere, so that people have the choice also to go there.

Doris Schneeberger 00:32:58  Yeah.

Jens Seidl 00:32:59  Makes perfect sense. Great. Well, any parting thoughts that you want to share with us before we wrap up for today?

Doris Schneeberger 00:33:07  No. 21st of September. Please take part.

Jens Seidl 00:33:10  There you go.

Jens Seidl 00:33:10  Please go and vote. It’s on the ECB website. Yes, please. And this is open to anybody. Right. It’s not just for people who live in the euro system.

Doris Schneeberger 00:33:19  We ask at the end where you’re from. So we would like to know whether you’re European citizen or not, but for the rest, not great.

Jens Seidl 00:33:26  So please do vote. It is actually super interesting if it’s only to see all of the different designs that’s worth going through this, so please, please do that. Doris, thank you so much for having me here in your offices. Really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to chat with us.

Doris Schneeberger 00:33:42  And thanks for coming over.

Jens Seidl 00:33:43  No thank you. It’s a beautiful sunny day.

Doris Schneeberger 00:33:46  Coming out now. It’s nice.

Jens Seidl 00:33:47  Yeah, I rode my bike over here, so it’s.

Jens Seidl 00:33:49  It’s a good day Friday in Frankfurt and the weekend is coming. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right, well, that concludes our episode for today. Please do, like, follow whatever you need to do on your podcast platform to make sure you don’t miss any future episodes. Thank you.