The UPI Story: Technology, Innovation, Interoperability – Srishti Jain Andreasen [Season 2 | Episode #16]

Jens Seidl 00:00:33  Welcome to another episode of the P.I.T. Exchange: Payments, Innovation and Technology. My name is Jens Seidl, and I’m your host for this session. And I’ve got a very special guest with us, Srishti Jain Andreasen. And hopefully I didn’t slaughter your name too much there. Welcome.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:00:47  Yeah. Thank you. It’s so wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jens Seidl 00:00:51  Thanks for joining us, as always on on my episodes, I’d like to start with a bit of an icebreaker. Just three semi random questions about you personally before we start talking about work on the plane. Do you prefer a window?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:01:04  Window? Always.

Jens Seidl 00:01:05  Why is that?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:01:05  I enjoy, you know, many times. Sometimes people in the middle can take up a lot of room. Or I just kind of enjoy being in my corner. If I need to work, I can just work without having to worry about any of that. And I can just. If I want to sleep, I can just go against the window and I get a little bit more space. But I also really enjoy looking out. I love traveling, I’ve been traveling since I was a little kid, and I think that some of the most gorgeous views from up above, so that’s my main reason.

Jens Seidl 00:01:31  Okay, well then let’s stay with travel. What’s your favorite travel destination?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:01:35  So growing up, my parents always loved coming to Switzerland, so I used to really enjoy our flights over to Zurich because it represented the start of the holiday. so really good. Like as in Denmark, we say the feelings. But I have fallen in love with Denmark since having moved here, so I really enjoy exploring Denmark and getting to know it more.

Jens Seidl 00:01:59  Okay, well, then let’s stick with Denmark. Do you want to tell us one really interesting thing you only experienced in Denmark? Or for the first time in Denmark?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:02:08  Gosh, I’ve had so many firsts here. I met my husband. I’ve had. I became a mom twice. I, I really grew as an adult, an individual. But I think the, the really unique part about Denmark is this concept of humor and really being present in the moment and just enjoying everything in pure bliss. I think that balance and you know, the holding yourself and being like, okay, let’s be present right in this moment and just enjoy this. I think that’s so essential. It kind of brings you back to like, the brass tacks, right? Like what’s important in life. And and I think that that part has been really nice. One part that I absolutely have discovered and enjoyed in the last year is winter bathing. So you probably know Denmark is surrounded by ocean everywhere, And I too live just five minutes away from the ocean, and I go swimming in the ocean every week with friends all through the year.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:03:05  And that’s absolutely phenomenal as an experience.

Jens Seidl 00:03:09  Wow. It sounds freezing and I wouldn’t be too keen. I think maybe I need to give it a try one day. Now let’s let’s talk about work a little bit in payments. So if you want to introduce yourself, who you work for and how you got to where you are right now, please.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:03:23  Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So I’m from RS Software and I’ll introduce a little bit about the company because not everybody knows about RS Software. But we’ve been part of the global payments ecosystem for over 30 years. Today, 350 plus billion transactions that take place annually happen on transactions that we have built globally. So our journey includes building an operating systems in the US and India and other markets across Europe as well, and really undergoing deep digital transformation. One of the most exciting chapters in our journey has been our contribution to the development of India’s Unified Payments Interface UPI. And so I’m super excited to talk about that today.

Jens Seidl 00:04:05  Well, let’s let’s talk about UPI then why shouldn’t we? And we actually had an episode here a few weeks ago with Monica Jasuja from the Emerging Payments Association, and she gave us a pretty good overview of what is going on in India, from a digital public infrastructure point of view and how all of these different initiatives hang together.

Jens Seidl 00:04:27  And so we don’t want to really talk about big picture so much today, but really drill a bit more into the detail of UPI. But maybe if you want to tell us a little bit about what what your involvement and your personal involvement also was in getting UPI off the ground, what the history was and and where we are now with UPI.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:04:44  Most definitely. And, you know, Monica recorded an excellent webinar. I really enjoyed hearing it as well. And so that’s why I’ve not given the background or the history at all in terms of like what the Indian government has established. UPI was launched in 2016 by the National Payment Corporation of India, and its vision was creating a unified real payments platform that could interconnect India’s fragmented banking landscape and democratize access to digital payments. So before UPI came into the picture, 90 plus percent of transactions were happening through cash, and while there was credit card penetration, but 90% was cash. And its roots go further back for UPI to the earlier layers of India’s digital public infrastructure.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:05:28  Aadhaar identity as Monica mentioned, the India Stack and Imps, which is for real time transfers that existed before UPI came into place for mobile penetration. But what made UPI really different from day one was that it wasn’t just a new payment system, it was a new architecture. And that’s where Rs software comes in. That’s the value that we have brought into. We are the technology provider for Npci. To bring UPI into the world. It’s a protocol based, API driven platform with openness at its core. That openness is what allows the banks to be able to, and the fintechs to be able to innovate. So you and I were together at.

Jens Seidl 00:06:13  The zero zero forum. Point Zero weeks ago in Zurich.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:06:16  Last week. Thank you. I was blanking and there was a lot of conversation that went into talking about interoperability and how it’s so important for banks, central infrastructures, fintechs to be able to have that open collaboration. That is exactly that dream is what UPI has delivered. It allows banks, fintechs to innovate and compete while ensuring the central infrastructure remains robust, resilient and governed.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:06:43  And that, I think, is really essential. I can go into a lot of the metrics of what UPI has accomplished. Would you like to hear some of them?

Jens Seidl 00:06:52  Yes. Please go for it.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:06:53  It. though. So when you’re looking at, you know, at the launch, right. So you’re looking at 2016 UPI really started a lot as a person to person platform for people to be able to transfer through their mobile devices one on one, and at that point, there was just a 0.005 billion transactions per month. So almost negligent. And that same thing for person to merchants. So person to business, right. In 2025 this number is now 8 billion transactions per month. That’s happening person to person. And next to almost the same 7.5 billion that’s happening for persons to merchants. And this explosion for the person to merchants has really happened since 2020. And the reasons for that have been the widespread QR adoption, QR code adoption, sandbox rollout, zero merchant discount rate policy and integration with retail Kinara as we call like the local street vendors and even toll tollbooths.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:07:53  So this aspect of the person to merchant adoption at such a high rate is really almost unique to the UPI faster payments platform that exists globally.

Jens Seidl 00:08:06  It’s amazing to hear that there’s even so many person to person payments. I mean, 8 billion in a month. Do we understand what’s driving that? What what are these use cases that people pay or make so many payments between individuals?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:08:20  So as you know, India of course has a large population as well. But, you know, the use cases have really been a lot around commerce. So at the launch when P2P was the primary use case. So it became kind of a necessary aspect for being able to transact across for anything, for even small transactions, buying a regular local groceries or pharmacy or all of those things, or being able to make all of your different payments for recurring payments, for mandate subscriptions, utilities, insurance premiums, all of that in real time. So it really became as a part of the ecosystem where when starting out, the transactions per second were able to do 15,000 transactions per second, and now it’s comfortably at 25,000 transactions per second.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:09:08  This was a shared vision between the regulators, the central infrastructure and the market players, and it’s really been able to create a huge shift from P2P to B2B. And that’s because as the real time payments, the limits have been increased. B2B payments, cross-border remittances, supply chain finance they’ve all gained traction. So it’s evident that once commerce use cases gained prominence, the daily limits have to be raised. The abilities of the the platform have to be able to support that. The scalability, the resilience. So the reason why I would say that UPI took on such a big traction was because it always works. It’s reliable. Trust is a huge factor. In fact, people have so little tolerance. If something doesn’t work even once, they don’t want to use it again. They don’t want to feel there’s a sense of embarrassment if your payment is rejected or if someone’s not able to get it or something because people feel the reason to explain themselves. UPI has shown the resilience, the stability, that it always works.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:10:14  Another aspect about it is fraud. So when you’re when you’re opening yourself, you know this is hard earned money. This UPI enables a population that has a huge variety in terms of financial status, to be able to transact. Having fraud as a prevention is such a big factor. And this is something that was when UPI was built. It was built as a platform to serve over a billion people. And trust in that currency is super important. Right from inception, UPI has had device binding and tokenization to reduce impersonation. Tokenization is something that RS Software was had built when Apple Pay launched for visa. So we took our experience from those transactions to be able to build tokenization into the UPI system. Mandatory two factor authentication has been part of every transaction. Real time fraud detection. So fraud is not some fraud. Prevention is not something that was built on later. It came as part and parcel in the right from inception for for UPI with risk engines that use behavioral analytics and velocity checks today across Europe last year at EBAday.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:11:26  But coming up on EBAday in a week, next week in Paris, there was a huge conversation on fraud and fraud prevention and being able to. How does one get tapping to the access for behavior analytics to really be able to get into the real aspect of the fraud? And very importantly, a centralized dispute management system. These aspects have really enabled the trust in the system, and that’s why people had just taken it on more and more and more. Starting with small transactions to going bigger and bigger.

Jens Seidl 00:11:56  Okay. Well, let’s let’s stay with fraud for a moment, because a lot of the things that you mentioned there are addressing technology fraud. So things like multi-factor authentication etc., etc. that’s really preventing hacking, right? But there’s a whole new class and a whole new quality of frauds now typically referred to as scams, where it’s not even about technology, it’s just scamming people into making a payment. It’s not even a hack or anything like that. People go into the system, they make the payment voluntarily because they’ve been scammed into something.

Jens Seidl 00:12:30  Do you also see that with with UPI? And are there also solutions already in the making or already implemented that help with preventing that from happening?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:12:38  Yes. Most definitely. So Npci, National Payment Corporation of India, they create shared standards and services for fraud monitoring, which allows smaller banks and players to benefit from the collective intelligence. At RS Software, one of our key contribution was designing this from a system level perspective. So we deployed 11 specific design strategies to implement optimize flow, high execution speed security, high security, horizontal and vertical linear scalability, reduce payload and system agility, all the while serving the functional requirements of the next generation of digital payments. So we knew from our work in the US, across the UK, across the globe that fraudsters adapt quickly as you just mentioned. So the goal wasn’t just to eliminate fraud once, but to continuously adapt with scalable intelligence. So when UPI was launched, it was part of a digital public infrastructure for real time payments, which India launched in 2016. It was designed to support two features confirmation of payee and to keep that confirmation of payees to keep the authorised push payments under control and an externalization of authentication, which enables innovation to foster.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:13:52  That led to the quick adoption and support of diverse use cases. So before 2016, as I mentioned, Imps existed, which enabled immediate real time payments, but there was a huge amount of friction. So with the addition of COP, so confirmation of payee, what it enables is it’s a it’s a really easy to use system where now instead of having to type the person’s name where you could make a mistake, there is something that’s called a virtual payment address. So it’s like an email address for example. So you type in the person’s virtual payment address and then the bank taps into the UPI, taps into the centralized database, confirms it with the bank. The bank supplies the name that is listed for that virtual payment address in their system, provides it back to the payer. The payer confirms. Yes, this is the person pays the amount that they want to pay. Verification of payee, which is a huge hot topic today in Europe as a requirement that we have to be able to deliver. So UPI from inception has had confirmation of payee and verification of payee builds into the system which created.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:14:59  So it supports. Another aspect that it really supports is for it being able to have multiple ways of use cases, person to person, person to merchant. As I mentioned earlier, auto payment, credit line on UPI and offline payments. UPI is the only faster payments platform today that I know of that is able to offer offline payments. At Point Zero Forum, the Governor of Denmark talked about it being able to enable having offline payments for when in the situation of a national emergency or something, outages, being able to offer consumers to be able to transact offline for necessary groceries, pharmacies, etc.. And and there’s a scheme that has gotten together and agreed upon that, which is amazing. UPI has launched with UPI light. And today the daily average volume on UPI is 500 million transactions a day, worth approximately €7 billion a day. So as UPI and the number of transactions grew, it also became evident that there is a need for a real time fraud and risk management system because just the sheer volume of transactions and the speed of it.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:16:10  So there’s also a lot of conversation across Europe where I was just at, NextGen Nordics in Stockholm, where there was several panels that discussed at what point of the transaction, real time transaction. Can we now initiate some friction so that we have time to detect the fraud? And so it’s those kinds of concerns where Npci realized, okay, we need to be able to. So it’s nice that the fraud that we have in. But we need to be able to have an entire electronic real time monitoring fraud and risk management platform. So they put out an RFP, another global RFP, and our software paid for that with our recently edge. And it’s a multi real real time fraud and risk management product from our software. And today there’s 1200 plus banks that are onboarded onto this fraud solution. It’s protecting 18 to 20 billion transactions a month which is worth €270 billion across all the rails, while UPI is 90% of those transactions, because it does support all of the multi rails that are needed, and it operates at 15,000 transactions per second.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:17:19  If you follow the cricket at all, if you’re a cricket fan, the peak points when there’s IPL betting going on for cricket matches, it shoots 60% during that peak time for traffic. So so I think the the real capacity to be able to, from a technology perspective, handle the speed of the transactions and being able to detect the fraud even from before it takes place. But even after, to be able to provide the centralized aspect is a rules engine, where all the banks have access to the rules while protecting their internal environment and not giving access to all of the internals. Because banks, of course, are also competitive with each other, but they can make use of the benefit of being able to have this rules engine that they can all access and be able to learn from, and then get the benefit of the behavior analytics.

Jens Seidl 00:18:10  Yeah, I think that’s definitely a trend we’re seeing across the globe now that that countries take more and more, the view that the payment operator actually is the ideal point to, identify that kind of fraud because it’s become such a sophisticated model now with new accounts and so on and so on, that for an individual bank or retailer to identify that fraud is almost impossible.

Jens Seidl 00:18:34  It needs that network effect of really connecting all of the dots, but literally to see what is actually going on across the system, and not just with one particular bank or one particular retailer. And I guess that’s what you would have seen in India as well. Right.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:18:49  Yes, that’s completely true. And you know, when we talk about that, it’s also important for the resilience. So now when we’re talking about resilience there’s two dimensions. There’s the technical aspect and the institutional side right. So on the technical side UPI runs on high availability architecture designed for zero downtime. It’s horizontally scalable, distributed, tested for fault tolerance across multiple banks and payment service providers. On the institutional side, Npci is role as a nonprofit utility meant it could focus on building long term infrastructure, not just short term projects that allowed UPI to evolve iteratively and inclusively. So from his experience, our experience with tier one clients helped us to build UPI to undermine the adoption in a country as vast and diverse as India. So UBI has demonstrated close to a decade of resilience.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:19:44  When you look at the historical data about outages and reliability of the system. And I think that that aspect of being able to be resilient is extremely important when you’re talking about fraud.

Jens Seidl 00:19:56  Yes. All right. So that’s fraud and resilience. But what you mentioned before, how quickly UPI has actually been growing. Shall we also talk a little bit about the scalability. Is is this going to reach a ceiling at some point? Is the sky the limit. How does UPI actually grow with its user base?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:20:14  Of course. So you know, UPI was built for scale. And I think even our original architects, who’s still very much a strong member of our team, probably didn’t predict the level of exponential growth we’ve seen from 21 monthly 10 million monthly transactions a month in 2017 to now over 12 billion transactions in 2024. It’s now one of the largest, if not the largest, real time payments systems in the world. And scalability in UPI wasn’t just about the hardware or the cloud capacity. So you know it is cloud based.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:20:47  It is open APIs, and what’s unique about it is that it is a stateless design principles that allow all the transactions processing to be at scale. It’s asynchronous APIs and callbacks for lower latency support for microservices, which is super essential. We’re talking about open banking. We’re talking about services. We’re talking about being able to enable microservices. This has been from the start for UPI, both for payment service providers and for acquirers, financial institutions. It’s efficient handling of peak loads during festivals, salaries, salary days or government payouts. At CES, we really emphasize the test automation, the load simulation, the predictive testing, stress testing because we had seen how systems break under pressure in other markets. So we brought that global experience into building a system that can be both resilient and scale. And this helped UPI scale not just technically, but confidently as well. So while the system was initially built to just be able to handle a couple of thousand transactions per second, its quick adoption and continued modifications to the technology. Even now, our relationship with Npci is very strong and we work hand in hand in all of the different updates and newer versions.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:22:08  Is now peaking at 25,000 transactions per second. And this speaks to the overall scalability and the design of the solution. So when you talk about scalability, I think that it really is in the design of the actual solution, the architecture which enables it to continue to be able to handle a higher and higher load. Just some aspects. You know, today there’s 540 plus banks and apps that work seamlessly across one UPI, ID, which works across platforms. I don’t see that in any other system across the world. Real time transactions. Settlement under two seconds 24 over seven 365 days of the year cost free transactions. That’s what the government, as Monica mentioned as well, has been able to bring into the environment, is a zero merchant discount rate, which is made up attractive for 15 million plus merchants from street vendors to large retailers. Open APIs have really sparked innovation from fintech giants. So this system built for India has been able to attract global leaders. So phone pay, Google Pay, emerging players like Paytm and Cred.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:23:17  And what’s interesting now, which is something that again, another hot topic in Europe is ISO 20 or 22 UPI. And the fraud and risk management solution are as intelligent, have from inception been built with the ISO 2002 two standards for richer data and cross-border capability. So cloud microservices based architecture for horizontal scaling is critical for handling the daily transaction volumes, which exceed 400 million. And I think that that is the aspect that really allows the scalability.

Jens Seidl 00:23:49  Okay, let’s move away from the technology aspect a little bit and talk more about what what is actually the user experience. You mentioned QR code payments before. Is this really the the super app? Is that what’s driving the success behind UPI or what kind of different user experiences are actually already implemented?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:24:06  Sure. So, you know, when we look at the the aspect for the for the user experience, right? So I think its biggest success for UPI lies in its user experience. Because if it wasn’t easy to adopt, like when you’re looking at an iPhone came out, right, it wasn’t something the market was asking for if it wasn’t easy to use and provided you know what you needed to do, I don’t think it would have ever gotten adopted.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:24:29  So I think that when you want to be able to send money to anyone using just a phone number without knowing bank details, without knowing QR codes, without knowing any of those things. I mean, think about it. You know, you’ve probably also experienced where you had to send money to someone. You needed all of the different details and the name and the address and the zip code and blah, blah, blah, and all of those things. Right now it’s just a phone number or the VPA. And so this allowed people from all ages so aging population as well as younger populations, literacy like people that are not necessarily literate from different areas or different connectivity issues. This allowed them to be able to transact without knowing any bank details. And the merchants, the smallest of merchants on the street, just needed a little QR code. They didn’t need a payment pass device to be able to transact to secure our code. And then roadside tea stalls, for example. Or urban supermarkets could be able to experience and transact through UPI.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:25:28  This simplicity masks a great deal of design thinking, so it’s interoperability across the apps and the banks. Reversible mandates for recurring payments. Intent based payments where the user initiates with a scam or a tap. Voice enabled features for users with low literacy or visual challenges. What UPI shows us is that great user experience is not about minimal clicks. It’s about confidence. It’s about speed and accessibility. And that’s where the public private partnerships has really worked. Npci ensured the rules were consistent while apps competed to delight users. So I mentioned earlier that it has externalization of authentication. The objective was to support innovation here. Payment service providers like Google Pay, Phone Pay, Paytm, etc. and many other bank apps made it easy for the payers to be able to pay using UPI. So innovations like the QR code sandbox these reduce the friction and when it reduces the friction and the cost of acceptance, then that really creates a much easier use of experience And also very importantly, as I mentioned, the enterprise part and risk management platform has generated really high confidence in the overall system.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:26:43  And all of these provide a user experience that people want to be able to transact on this platform.

Jens Seidl 00:26:48  Hey. All right, so what’s going to happen next with UPI? What’s next in the pipeline?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:26:53  So you know, today when we look at and at our software, we focus regularly on being able to innovate across our innovation lab, which we have established and be able to reiterate and create some new solutions. We look a lot at what’s happening with other faster payments platforms that are happening around the globe. So whether you’re looking at, you know, pix in Brazil, whether you’re looking at the US fed, now you’re looking at chips in Europe. The reason why, you know, UPI has been unique. So before we can look forward in terms of what’s happening, I think the reason why UPI has been unique when we’re looking at other platforms is that it combines real time payments with identity with authentication. Consent layers is API first and mobile native, but it’s not a retrofit of legacy rails, which is very necessary.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:27:44  It enables fintech participation without compromising systemic security. It supports use cases beyond person to person payments like toll payments, merchant commerce subscriptions, government benefits. So today, when we look at kind of what it has already accomplished and what it’s enabling, we can then see in terms of what next, what kind of use cases can be enabled. I think cross-border is something that is that UPI as a platform is, in my opinion, fully set up for and capable for. I think we expect to see an increase in credit line on UPI adoption, new use cases coming out of that UPI is now accepted across Bhutan, France, Mauritius, Nepal, Singapore, Sri Lanka and the UAE. So almost ten other countries. So it is cross-border, where people from India are able to transact in these countries using UPI. So we expect to see a much larger number of countries doing the same. And there are several initiatives being discussed across BIS for cross-border payments and cross-border transactions. I think UPI story is not just a tech success, it’s a system success.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:28:54  It’s the product of good regulation, smart design, collaborative delivery, and we’re proud to have been part of that journey. It’s made history and we’re really excited to support the next generation of payment transformations globally.

Jens Seidl 00:29:07  Well, looks like there’s a bright future ahead for UPI. And I think what we haven’t really covered, and I know we’re running short of time now, is how UPI has also played a role in now enabling financial inclusion, right, because there’s already the next system being built early for loans, right? And it’s as you would expect, the payment aspect is the first rung on the ladder of financial inclusion. And again, I think UPI is playing a role in that. Do you want to comment on that a little bit as well?

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:29:39  Most definitely, I think so. Financial inclusion has been the very goal of UPI from inception, right. So it’s something that, you know, the government looked at and saw that, okay. So the the country of India has many unbanked populations. A large percentage of the population is unbanked and is not able to have bank accounts or access to bank accounts.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:29:57  And that’s why cash is such a huge aspect. So it’s not just the success of the India story, it’s a payment blueprint for payment modernization globally. So what UPI has enabled, because its ease of use and because it’s interoperability across all the different banks, it’s every single aspect of the system of the people. The population is able to access UPI. So accessibility is very much there. And then it also is able to transact across globally. So have fintechs that have global presence be able to come into the India market. So that’s the inclusion of so many of the different fintechs that can provide their services to such a large population. So today, countries across the globe are talking about how they can participate with India and be able to create solutions together. And I think this was not enabled before UPI was created and really created the inclusion aspect.

Jens Seidl 00:30:54  All right. Well, I’m afraid we’re out of time, sir. It was so great to have you with us today. Thank you very much for joining us.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:31:00  Thank you so much for having me. It was really wonderful to see you again.

Jens Seidl 00:31:04  Any last thoughts you want to share with our audience before we part, I think.

Srishti Jain Andreasen 00:31:07  Thank you so much for listening to us and to be able to, you know, I think it’s been a really insightful session and nice to for us to also look back in terms of the last almost decade of UPI in action. I think it’s very exciting to really be able to see the the cross-border initiatives. And that’s that’s the part that really excites me. And, you know, technology is something where it was technology was kept on one side and I think UPI represents the blend of technology and innovation and interoperability and systems that really operate in silos before banks and silos, for example, are coming together, a vision that probably people thought of that wouldn’t have been able to come together. And I’m very humbled and happy that the the technology experience that our software has built over 30 years has been able to culminate and bring about this global innovation.

Jens Seidl 00:31:57  All right. Well, again, thank you so much for joining us today. Also thanks to our listeners. Please do like follow do what you need to do on your podcast platform to make sure you don’t miss any of our future episodes. Thank you very much. This is insightful and this is the P.I.T. Exchange.