“Wi likkle but wi tallawah” — Resilience in Jamaica – Marcus Brodber [Season 2 | Episode #33]

Jordan Taylor 00:00:33 Welcome to the latest episode of The P.I.T. Exchange podcast. My name is Jordan Taylor and we have a very special episode. This time we are recording live at the America’s Cash Cycle Seminar in Miami, Florida, and I am joined by Marcus Brodber of Branch Consulting. Marcus, thank you for joining us.

Marcus Brodber 00:00:55 Thank you. Thank you for having me, Jordan.

Marcus Brodber 00:00:57 It’s my pleasure to be here.

Jordan Taylor 00:00:58 Good. how was your week been? I know you presented.

Marcus Brodber 00:01:02 It’s been it’s been, it’s been a mixed week. It’s been good to be here. Yeah. I really like Miami. Miami is one of my favorite places.

Jordan Taylor 00:01:09 Miami is hard not to like.

Marcus Brodber 00:01:11 Very little Miami.

Jordan Taylor 00:01:12 It really brings the people.

Marcus Brodber 00:01:13 It’s really close to home. Yeah. so this is a place that we come to, you know, frequently enough. there’s a lot going back home. So it was kind of hard to leave. Sure, it was hard to leave, but, you know, I was already slated to present, but it also to get feels good to get, like, a breath of fresh air as well.

Jordan Taylor 00:01:31 Yeah. How how are things? I mean, obviously, you know, devastation last week. obviously glad you were able to even attend, and get out safely. can you give us a little bit of insight of what things look like?

Marcus Brodber 00:01:47 Quite well. All right, so Jamaica has an island. It’s about 2000. It’s about 2000km in length. so what happened with the hurricane? It really went through from south to north the western side of the island. So usually the tourist areas. a section called Saint Elizabeth was most, horribly affected.

Marcus Brodber 00:02:08 so in the east, where the capital is and where I am, you know, it wasn’t that bad. But maybe like tropical storm winds, category one winds. Yeah. But it was a full category five. Sustained 180 mile per hour winds experienced in the west. and some towns have been totally obliterated. Yeah. funny enough, last year that I was in New Orleans and, you know, we spoke a lot about the devastation of Katrina. You know, we have some towns that are similar to that kind of devastation. So we’re still in search and rescue mode right now. It’s been about eight days now. we’ve gotten good support from the US. Boots on the ground from the fire departments. we got boots on the ground from El Salvador. We got, you know, a lot of Russian supplies from the UK. neighbouring countries. Barbados. but we still can’t access certain areas. Communication is down in the west. It’s very difficult to communicate. Right after the hurricane. 70% of the island was low power and without internet.

Marcus Brodber 00:03:13 so it’s a lot of anxiety as well, because a.

Speaker 4 00:03:15 Lot of you don’t.

Marcus Brodber 00:03:16 Get in touch with the family members or the loved ones. So it is a anxious, sad time. but what is good is that the country has unified and pulled together. So, you know, last week and everyone in the East went out to the West with supplies, donations, everybody’s doing drives to get, donations and food and water, and everybody just took it upon themselves to get as far as they could get and get us get as close to remote areas as they could. to help our fellow citizens in the West. So right now, we’re still doing a lot of search and rescue and recovery. I wouldn’t even say we’re going into rebuilding phase, as it it’s really still assessing the extent of the damage. which is pretty bad. I mean, we have been through a lot of hurricanes in Jamaica. Sure. I myself, I think I’ve been through maybe five, on in 1988, that was the only one called Hurricane Gilbert when I passed through the category three, I believe.

Marcus Brodber 00:04:13 And we thought that that’s the worst.

Jordan Taylor 00:04:15 Nothing could.

Marcus Brodber 00:04:15 Ever. So that’s the thing. We’re we’re very confident that we’d be able to weather the storm. But we have never seen a category five. So it was even surprising for us that a hurricane could cause this, this amount of damage. but power is down. Connectivity is down. but I guess the silver lining is that the east, which is where Kingston is, which is, the capital, which is the main city of commerce that is still up and running. And as such, it’s easier to support support the West.

Jordan Taylor 00:04:49 Good. Yeah, I would imagine, too. It’s it’s difficult to be here. Maybe enjoying yourself a little bit. you know, like you said, some mixed feelings about about being here, but also knowing what people are still. Still going through. Minute by minute, day by day.

Marcus Brodber 00:05:06 It’s very.

Jordan Taylor 00:05:06 Difficult. Yeah. Difficult? Yeah. well, I unfortunately, I think that that leads into a question about sort of cash and payments infrastructure.

Jordan Taylor 00:05:18 You know, been coming to these events for a long time, as I’m sure you have as well. the topic of the need for a resilient cash and payments infrastructure, especially in this part of the world, right. Comes up probably every year, and sometimes it’s more of an abstraction. Sometimes we have an actual event that we can point to. Unfortunately, in this case with with Jamaica. Did this event sort of reinforce the idea that. That there are things we need to do, or it actually has performed in a way that maybe not, I don’t want to say exceeded expectations, but it has. Has met has met the moment and still managing to get cash to people or where where are things in that sense?

Marcus Brodber 00:06:08 I would say it’s a it’s a mixed bag. when you look at the West and you have total devastation, you can kind of understand, you know, connectivity, be known and be known. in the East, however, when it wasn’t that bad, we still have a lot of, telecommunication issues.

Marcus Brodber 00:06:26 So for, my company that manages some albums in the southeast, even though we weren’t hit badly, and even though most of the power is back, half of our ATMs are still down that we manage. Wow. because of internet issues. So all of the ATMs that are not attached to a branch, a bank branch are known. So the off site albums still are having internet connectivity issues. I took about six days for those to be resolved, right? so that question is what really came of that topic? How resilient are we in terms of our payment system? Right. And it is is it is ironic because in the last couple of years, you know, there’s been a sentiment that, you know, Jamaica has been trying to get rid of cash, right? with a fairly and unfairly so. And that’s because we’re one of the first to come out with, CBDC. Right. You know, so, you know, you know, social media, the government is trying to get rid of cash, right? but we are trying to ensure that we’re still cutting edge, and have all payment options, you know, available.

Marcus Brodber 00:07:34 But I think this also drove back home the point of, you know, what is the the readiness of the infrastructure. Yeah. Because even before this, Jamaica didn’t have the most, doesn’t have the most, reliable infrastructure. so even in the survey, study that I came to present on, one thing that came out was that about 40% of the respondents of the survey, over a 14 day period, experienced technical issues at the POS when trying to use that.

Jordan Taylor 00:08:04 I was just reading that. Right.

Marcus Brodber 00:08:05 Right. So it already showed even before this that, you know, even those that want to use a debit card, right, and that are using the debit card are using the credit cards. They themselves don’t believe that that that that the, the system, the POS system is reliable and that’s connectivity.

Jordan Taylor 00:08:22 Right. I think the language you used in the report was that with specifically with regard to the POS that creates a trust gap, right? That that, you know, I’m trying to use it.

Jordan Taylor 00:08:32 And, and yet I can nearly 20% within the last two weeks of, of the survey, had some sort of failed transaction. so how how is that counteracted if, if you have a portion of the population that wants to use, you know, non-cash instruments and they meet resistance, like what is what is a what is a practical solution to that, other than just fixing the infrastructure or making it more resilient? Because if it fails enough times, you’re just going to stop trying. It doesn’t matter what it what you tell me it is now. It’s all fixed. It’s better. You don’t need to worry. Yeah, try it a couple of times. I don’t really feel like trying anymore.

Marcus Brodber 00:09:15 Well, you know, that’s that’s a that’s a tough one. But what I will say is, for merchants, for the commercial banks, if, if we are trying to make sure that the public right can, can, can use other payment methods that we may believe may be more convenient cash or more convenient in specific circumstances? we ourselves, you know, merchants, commercial banks need to also look at what they can do.

Marcus Brodber 00:09:44 one of the presentations for the keynote presentation, Amanda spoke about, you know, everybody wants to be a part of building a Tesla, but nobody wants to build the road, right? So one part of it is a lot more exciting than, you know, high profile. But everybody wants to do the work that is going to allow the Tesla to to have something to run on.

Jordan Taylor 00:10:02 So cameras don’t come out for that grand opening for that.

Marcus Brodber 00:10:05 Yeah. So the funny thing with Jamaica is that we have two main telecommunications providers. but we have never had real redundancy because there’s only one fiber optic cable that goes into the island. So the other telecommunications provider piggybacks off of the other. So when one when the main line is down for one, it’s down for us. Down forever. So now that we have things available to us like Starlink, which is satellite, that is the only real redundancy. But the take up of Starlink has been slow, especially amongst the business community. So you have individuals for their homes, they’re buying Starlink, and the business community did not make that investment, maybe because it’s a little bit new.

Marcus Brodber 00:10:47 but it’s still now because of this incident. we have our distributor of Starlink devices in Jamaica now. They don’t have enough satellites. They don’t have enough, hardware now, right? so there’s a big backlog. so something like this has no spurn does to become a real redundancy, right? we really just have to invest in our infrastructure outside of the telecom providers, outside of the poor company. we may need to, as businesses really invest in node generators. solar. Right. So that we can ensure that we can get up and running quickly. whenever these things happen. and really, we have to look at, you know, climate change because we’re getting hurricanes much more frequently. Right? much more frequently because we had a bad hurricane last year. Right. which affected the southern coast as well, which was a category three. So this is the first time I’ve ever seen two hurricanes in Jamaica back to back. So, maybe what was something that used to occur every ten years? Every eight years? It could be a more frequent occurrence now.

Marcus Brodber 00:11:57 so we really need the merchants, the commercial banks, those that are benefiting from receiving and making payments. You have to make investments independently. of what is provided.

Jordan Taylor 00:12:08 What role? As a former central banker yourself, I know what role is the Bank of Jamaica doing to sort of bring about the environment that maybe your report suggests would be beneficial to, to all Jamaicans? And or what should they be doing if they’re not doing quite enough or what? What kind of role are they playing?

Marcus Brodber 00:12:33 What I would say is that the central bank has been very accommodating and supportive. of of innovation. so they have a they have a sandbox now that allows, commercial banks and anyone that they partner with the coming and test any fintech solution. Okay. Right. So they have had that for a few years, right. Again, they’ve been innovative. and being one of the first to have a CBDC. Right. now what they have been doing is trying to encourage banks to, to, to to take a certain percentage of their, their currency issues in the CBDC.

Marcus Brodber 00:13:09 Right. but at the same time, they’re also supportive of cash because they have since last year started to they implemented, ABM guidelines because the perception was that albums were always down. So they thought it important to protect the access to cash. for the, for the public. So they now have ABM guidelines, which they implemented last year, which requires early albums to be up. I think it’s something like 95% of the time. Right. And, fault response has to be, solved within three hours.

Jordan Taylor 00:13:49 are those in effect now? They are in effect.

Marcus Brodber 00:13:52 And then also you can’t have cash out. So more than an hour. So if an ATM runs out of cash you have to respond to it within an hour. so they have put in those are called them guidelines because they have not started to implement penalties okay. So they have implemented these guidelines and they have started to monitor. Right. So, you know, because the commercial banks depend on us, the cities now we have more strict SLAs.

Marcus Brodber 00:14:19 So the the whole the overview and looking at albums and the performance levels has become very topical and very important for the central bank. so I would say that they do do a lot, to ensure that payments, you know, cutting edge, if you want to do something innovative, we’re supportive of that as well. but, you know, the old resilient cash also needs to be accessible by, by, by the public.

Jordan Taylor 00:14:52 Was was Jamaica’s rationale for, jam decks the CBDC. Was that was that a financial inclusion? Sort of broadly speaking, that was their motivation for that.

Marcus Brodber 00:15:03 Was part of the motivation, I believe, about 20 or 23% unbanked. so again, it was how do we reach the unbanked? so that was definitely, a motivating factor.

Jordan Taylor 00:15:16 Now, obviously every jurisdiction is different, different circumstances, different reasons for rolling out a CBDC. I was in Grenada a few years ago. part of the, you know, Eastern Caribbean Currency Union, and they have a CBDC as well. And at least in Grenada.

Jordan Taylor 00:15:36 I asked as many merchants as I could, and I think I found one who maybe for whatever reason, was aware of it, but I didn’t have anybody else who was aware of it, let alone except. So if if Jamaica is anything like Grenada and that there is a vast just under awareness of the fact that this this thing exists, that the central bank has invested so much energy right in. And I, I think in your report, which I want to get to in more in more detail, your report said that 88% of respondents reported no digital currency use. Is does that does that mean the CBDC.

Marcus Brodber 00:16:19 Right.

Jordan Taylor 00:16:20 Okay. So so essentially 90% have never used the CBDC, which has been out now for 3 or 4 years. Right.

Marcus Brodber 00:16:27 So so I think what happened with that with the CBDC was that while the central bank developed the currency. They didn’t develop a rail. Right again to build the Tesla. But. But not the right. And what was being that the banks were being encouraged to now create their wallets to facilitate the CBDC, amongst other, other things.

Marcus Brodber 00:16:49 one of the major banks did create a wallet, right? But then the integration to facilitate the CBDC did take some time. So they launched out a wallet download mainly for peer to peer transactions. It was a lot of marketing and the take up was okay. Right. The take up was okay because even the bank itself, I think, they encouraged download by individuals, but then there was no inclusion of the merchants to have that point of sale. So okay, we download this digital wallet, we have money on it, but I can’t go and use it in the at the gas station. So that whole process from developing a CBDC, to have it been integrated with the wallet when the wallet was developed to have it now integrated and including the merchants? I think there was the the lag between the events was too long, and I think it killed the momentum. And then unfortunately, that bank did some restructuring and it basically cut all expenditure toward the wallet. So it still exists, but there’s no marketing for it anymore.

Marcus Brodber 00:17:56 There’s no drive to get the clients to use.

Jordan Taylor 00:17:59 So it was just the one.

Marcus Brodber 00:18:00 At that time.

Jordan Taylor 00:18:01 Right?

Marcus Brodber 00:18:02 I know they had a has another wallet, maybe two or.

Jordan Taylor 00:18:05 2 or 3 banks total. Right. Yeah.

Marcus Brodber 00:18:06 Not the vehicle has not been that great. And I think there’s the whole ecosystem around. It has not been done in a very concerted effort.

Jordan Taylor 00:18:15 From your perspective, from where you see Jamaica’s entire payment ecosystem, what it looks like at this moment. Is that something that that was a little bit premature? Can it be put on the shelf and maybe we reintegrated Once we have a more mature environment that can incorporate a CBDC along with other options.

Marcus Brodber 00:18:38 I think that the the segment of the population that does a lot of online banking likes to use credit card. I think they were ready for it, but I just think the implementation, the execution was not was not, was not done the correct way. for those that are still using cash, the unbanked, we have a large working class that uses a lot of cash.

Marcus Brodber 00:19:05 I don’t think they are ready for it as yet. I don’t think we have a I don’t think we have a good understanding of how that segment of the population uses cash and how it moves. And I think until they get that full understanding and find a way for the digital monitor to, to be a good substitute for that. then we’re going to have some issues for wide scale adoption again in a lot of the interior of the island. The rural areas again, connectivity or so do I want to have my money and a wallet on my phone? That when I get to my home, which is in the rural area, I can’t pass on the money to my kids? Right. so connectivity is an issue, and I think the infrastructure in Jamaica is something that is somewhat hindering the adoption of like digital currency and the mobile wallets.

Jordan Taylor 00:19:57 And I would imagine just from the perspective of somebody who doesn’t know these islands intimately, that I would assume that Jamaica is from like a from a connectivity standpoint, Jamaica is as connected as any island right in the region.

Jordan Taylor 00:20:16 Is that a reasonable assumption?

Marcus Brodber 00:20:18 It may be, but what Jamaica has, we have a lot. We are very mountainous, especially the interior island is very mountainous, so it’s harder to traverse. but we still have communities in those areas, right?

Jordan Taylor 00:20:30 Which which obviously also impacts the ability to provision cash services.

Marcus Brodber 00:20:35 In the main towns, the main cities along the coast. I believe our connectivity is going. But as you get to the interior of the island, it does become more difficult.

Jordan Taylor 00:20:45 Your report, which you know, I’d like you to go. You can give it a plug too. So payment preferences in Jamaica, you just put the finishing touches on it recently. sort of. If you can address motivation for why now what you’re trying to to discover, to learn from this survey, what you hope to do with these results, what was what was the impetus for the survey at the time?

Marcus Brodber 00:21:13 So why I went ahead with this was, I, I’ve a about 14, 15 years in the cash cash space first on the central bank of Jamaica.

Marcus Brodber 00:21:24 And I went to City company. Then I left the industry. Then I started a company and then partnered with the second largest city in Jamaica. Atlas. Ahmad. Right. So Branch and Atlas Ahmad works together to provide full cash management services. let’s focus is on what I call the heavy lifting. So they already have the infrastructure islandwide? they already have the armored trucks. They have one of the largest guardian forces in the island. And then branch invested in treasury management software machinery. and we focus on providing the treasury management services, the deposit processing and what kind of dropped up on top of their infrastructure. And then we partner together now to provide full services. we always we’re always looking for ways to provide value to our clients, which are the commercial banks, money services entities, and one of the one way to provide value, we believe, and which is very important is, is data and information. Again, we look at our clients that are banks, they’re building a wallet. The wallet is not successful.

Marcus Brodber 00:22:29 Why is it? Do they. Is it that they don’t have the right data? I’m not sure. Right. And I looked around and, I see where you have the payments diary that the fed does. The European Central Bank had the has the space paper and Jamaica didn’t have anything like that. And so we have real data and what is happening at the point of sale. but then that doesn’t capture over a large informal sector or a very large cash sector that is in the markets like flea markets, a lot of people shopping these large. Right. so how do we capture whole payments occur for those people as well? So the impetus was to provide information inside data, mainly for clients, and for us to get a better understanding of the public. You know, why we pay, how we pay. a lot of the narrative is just based on perception. Sure. Right. So it was kind of to give something real to what is actually happening in our island and why?

Jordan Taylor 00:23:29 Anything surprise you? I mean, I think from a from a looking at the, the, the findings, I would say that, that a lot of the results sound like they correspond with what a lot of other jurisdictions sort of generally speaking, are encountering.

Jordan Taylor 00:23:47 Right. Younger people are more digitally inclined. The elderly are not. Urban areas are rural areas have their have their their issues. is is that is that fair to say or is it I mean.

Marcus Brodber 00:24:02 Well, well, what did surprise me a bit is that, yes, the younger age cohort is more digitally inclined. But what we found is that they’re not less cash inclined. Right. So they just basically have a wider payment palette. Right. But they still use mostly cash, right? So I was expecting to see whereas the the highest age cohort 60 to 65. Over 90% of their transactions are cash. Right. And then after that debit card is 58%, I believe. I was expecting to see. No. The younger age cohort use more debit card. Credit card. Right. But they still use mostly cash. But they still use a lot of the other payment methods. So they look like they incorporate more payment methods. but not necessarily moving away from cash.

Jordan Taylor 00:24:55 Where where does that where does that cash come from for the average young person in Jamaica?

Marcus Brodber 00:25:00 So it could come from a number of places.

Marcus Brodber 00:25:02 Jamaica is big on peer to peer, particularly remittances. Remittances is now you go into a Western Union to get cash.

Jordan Taylor 00:25:10 From the United.

Marcus Brodber 00:25:11 States, United States, Canada. So that is big for Jamaica, where a family member now goes overseas to get a better life. Yeah. And every week they are sending back cash for either their children or their mother or their father. So that is that is big. Jamaica laborers as well. so construction is big. A lot of construction workers. they get paid in cash, right? so also, I think it’s as ingrained in the culture as well. So we’re not a big tipping culture, but when we do tip, we tend to tip with cash. So a lot of times you’ll see people paying with a card at a restaurant, and they may tip the waiter or the waitress in cash as well. And even those that getting are getting paid directly to their account. They tend to go and withdraw cash maybe for the week.

Jordan Taylor 00:26:02 That’s that’s fascinating, right?

Marcus Brodber 00:26:04 That’s intriguing.

Marcus Brodber 00:26:06 why is it they’re doing that? so you have two things that happens in Jamaica because of, credit card fees or even, fees associated with card use. Some places when you go to use a the charger more if you’re using a card, or even some places if you’re not, you’re quite a minimum value purchase right to use the card. Right? Right. And also, it may just come back to the infrastructure. As I said, the survey showed that about 40% experienced technical difficulties. So maybe even if you don’t want to use cash, you know that you need to have cash, as a backup, just in case the user experience technical difficulties at the point of sale. Funny enough, right before the hurricane, our entire multilink system went down. And that’s a system that facilitates cross bank transactions. So you are going to the store going to the gas station for about two days before for about two days before the hurricane. And then when you get to the POS, it’s not the same bank as your card.

Marcus Brodber 00:27:05 Right. And you just have to leave everything and go and try to figure out, all right, how am I going to do that transaction. So you have to go and find an ATM from your bank, right. Hopefully.

Jordan Taylor 00:27:16 Which may be out of money or.

Marcus Brodber 00:27:18 Is not close. Right. And then you have to get cash and then so. So, I think I think Jordan the infrastructure, forces even those that want to be cashless. Just from a practical standpoint, to even have some cash, in reserve to facilitate daily activity. Because even when you looked at the survey results for those that keep cash at home. You would think that they’re keeping cash at home for emergencies, but the majority of them are keeping cash at home for for for weekly, daily spending. Right. Right. It’s not for emergency.

Jordan Taylor 00:27:55 Yeah. See, that’s very different than than in the United States where cash and circulation has been rising. But, you know, cash at the point of sale is falling precipitously, right? yeah, that’s that’s interesting.

Jordan Taylor 00:28:08 And would you say then that the reason that the the it’s not true that the elderly, the elderly are using cash at 90%, right? But they’re not really using digital instruments at all. Is that just a function of their set in their ways? Because as the as the young people, as you just demonstrated, they’re willing to basically use anything, whatever’s whatever’s convenient, whatever, whatever feels right at the moment, whatever it is. But it’s it’s it’s anything available to them. But with other segments of the population, that’s not quite not true.

Marcus Brodber 00:28:48 And a big part of it is being set in their ways, and it’s not being comfortable with technology. I think that generation, especially in Germany, tends to be that’s the generation that just kind of skipped, you know, the the rapid development of technology.

Jordan Taylor 00:29:04 I don’t think it’s just in Jamaica here because I was reading this and I’m thinking of my father, who’s nearly 80 years old, and the prospect of him doing mobile banking. It’s like you forget it.

Jordan Taylor 00:29:17 Forget it. He would. He would throw the phone and he’s on his phone all the time. It’s not like he doesn’t have access to that part. It’s just taking that next step in doing those things.

Marcus Brodber 00:29:26 I just think he’s the comfort with the technology. Yeah. and again, that generation there is more comfortable cash. they may be less trusting of banks as well. so they like to go in the bank, to check on things, you know, to check on the cash. So I think it’s just comfort with technology or lack thereof.

Jordan Taylor 00:29:47 Is that is that something that you could foresee being implemented in Jamaica? Branch list banking. We see that a lot in Southeast Asia, for instance.

Marcus Brodber 00:29:57 So the branches, the banks of course, are trying to push push customers out. And they do it mainly with ATMs. which I think there are some challenges. Right. So recyclers are becoming more popular to get get, Get the the customers out of the branch. But then the quality of our notes tend to be an issue.

Marcus Brodber 00:30:21 So for, for the ATMs we manage, the recyclers in theory should be more effective in keeping, you know, short in the cash cycle, removing the need to go in the branch. But because of the quality of the notes being deposited by the public, they go down daily. Right. So it requires a lot more TLC.

Jordan Taylor 00:30:44 They’re moving around a lot.

Marcus Brodber 00:30:45 So we’re responding to these ATMs basically daily. Right.

Jordan Taylor 00:30:50 Is this is this an old series that you’re having to recycle, or is this any any of them?

Marcus Brodber 00:30:54 So these are the polymer series came out about maybe 3 or 4 years ago.

Jordan Taylor 00:30:57 Okay.

Marcus Brodber 00:30:58 so it’s pretty, pretty young.

Jordan Taylor 00:31:00 That’s right.

Marcus Brodber 00:31:01 Yeah. what is the nature of, oh, especially the lower denomination Parson’s in Jamaica. So, I think there are more tools that we can use. I think it has to be a hybrid. I think it has to be a hybrid. I think if we use the right hardware. I mean, recyclers are fine, but you might, you will need.

Marcus Brodber 00:31:20 So what we do when there’s a bank branch with like maybe six or 7 or 8 ABMs, we leave an officer underground who does like customer service or customer experience and helps them with the ATM and transactions, and they respond to non-cash files. Right. So when there are faults where you don’t need to access the vault. They respond too quickly to keep the ATMs up and running. So I think a hybrid between with the right tools, technology, I think we can incorporate as well because we have these large cash deposits, which is the recyclers and the ATMs are deposits, and I think they tend to be more limited in the volume they can put in at a time, and the counting speed is low. I believe if we try to incorporate, like high speed smart series. That could be something that can be incorporated for maybe a large cash customers as well. so it’s about finding the right technology, to facilitate. And we can definitely remove have branches that have limited, limited, human presence.

Jordan Taylor 00:32:26 Sure.

Jordan Taylor 00:32:26 What is the city seen in Jamaica? You said you were, you know, you had partnered with with one of them. Is it a do they have a monopoly? Are there 2 or 3? I know in other countries they’re, you know, dramatically shrinking.

Marcus Brodber 00:32:44 So the industry really shrunk and was monopolized about seven years ago. but then what we saw with that was a significant drop in service delivery. and then that was now coupled with us becoming, with that company experience a lot of attacks from criminals is that they attack them every time they were going to replenish an AVM, and that became a serious issue, and it just caused surface level to really fall.

Jordan Taylor 00:33:15 Was that in Kingston, or was that everywhere was everywhere.

Marcus Brodber 00:33:18 So I think there was space of a year and a half year, like 5 or 6 really violent attacks. Right? so we were in Jamaica, that company, you know, we’re doing sit with a mixture of armored car and non armored skin, but because of the attacks, nobody wanted to go in a soft skin anymore for them.

Marcus Brodber 00:33:35 Understandably so. Sure. So their fleet shrunk overnight. So their ability to get to all of the stops became very difficult. and as such, with that, the opportunity came now for the company I partner with Atlas know to get back in the game. So they were still doing some pick ups, but they weren’t doing the back end services for the bank side deposit processing. so when we came together now, we came back into the marketing area. We are now, we are doing business with a few of the banks and a few of the money services entities. So it shrunk. And then no, it is kind of expanding again. And there was another new entrant as well. So right now we have three main providers, but then you have about another three that do minimal sit on and.

Jordan Taylor 00:34:20 For for an island the size of Jamaica though, that sounds like a fairly healthy mix. I mean, maybe it’s not optimal, but yeah.

Marcus Brodber 00:34:27 So what happens is that that the largest company still has majority of the market, maybe, maybe over 80%.

Jordan Taylor 00:34:32 We don’t want to talk about that.

Marcus Brodber 00:34:34 But I used to work there. So it’s, beryllium. So beryllium has over 80% of the market, I would believe. Still over 80%. and are still the Giants, right? but again, I don’t think everybody can be a priority. So it has allowed space now for us know to get some clientele where they are not our priority. and we are growing on our side as well. So it’s no more competitive than it was for the last 5 or 6 years. So competition has increased.

Jordan Taylor 00:35:03 So how would things evolve for your company specifically if if cash becomes less of a of a of a thing in Jamaica, where where does branch go from in a more digital Jamaica?

Marcus Brodber 00:35:18 I think we set ourselves as a as a part of the payment space. We don’t really see ourselves as just being a cash company. The foundation for us is cash. but we are what we what we aim to do is use as much technology as possible to make sure cash remains competitive.

Marcus Brodber 00:35:36 Let me put it. That’s a that’s our main goal. so for me, for cash to disappear naturally, it must mean that it’s not competitive compared to the others. And that would be in terms of convenience, costs, speed, anonymity, whatever it is. Right. So our goal at branch is to make sure cash remains a competitive payment option. Yeah, right. And I think if we use technology so we those in favor of capture. So we speak about technology being the end of cash. But at the same time it gives cash a lifeline. Right. So for us it’s about using the appropriate technology, to ensure cash remains competitive in the payments landscape, which is why we come to conferences all the time to see what is happening all over the world. What is new, what’s the latest technology? smart sales, whatever it may be, high speed, smart saves. what are the digital asset solutions? How do we get real time visibility? what are the things we can do to make sure the cash cycle goes as fast and as cost effective as possible?

Jordan Taylor 00:36:46 When you when you come to events like this one, but not just this one, do you hear innovative ideas that you say, okay, we can incorporate that or do you hear tired, you know, Repetitive kind of ideas.

Jordan Taylor 00:37:01 People stuck. I mean, I think that was a criticism leveled at the cash industry for a long time, was that they kind of failed to see what was coming at them head on. I’m not sure how how fair or accurate that is, but I think that it’s also easy to and I think the same is true, maybe even in in other spaces. but do you come to these events and you take things back with you that say, like, we can this that was useful. We can incorporate this in our in our business.

Marcus Brodber 00:37:36 Well, all right. Well, what I would say is that, well, I was I was kind of alter the industry for a while. So I stopped coming to conferences about 2018. And then I restarted coming last year. and I would say that it has been extremely useful.

Jordan Taylor 00:37:55 Yeah.

Marcus Brodber 00:37:55 Good. I mean, it has been extremely useful for me. So, I have found a couple of solutions that I’m going to be implementing by next year. so we’re trying to find very, very unique ways to operate to look at the pain points.

Marcus Brodber 00:38:11 Right. so we know that deposit box solutions are a problem. So we’re looking into a solution for that to give to the banks. so we’re ABM of time is still an issue. so we’re looking to partner to partner with that ATM provider. and try to couple and marry cit ABM service with it with with with ABM provision. I’m probably looking to the ABM as a service. Right. we found good solutions vault software solutions as well. So we definitely it has been very useful. Good. again, do I need to keep up the frequency every year? Maybe. Maybe every couple years? You find something new.

Jordan Taylor 00:38:51 For those other events? Of course. Right. Not not this one. This one you’ll come to every year.

Marcus Brodber 00:38:55 Yeah. You come to. Yeah. And again. Obviously, I hope this this this I can see come to the ICOs every year. Right. Because it’s about discourse. Right. It’s really about discourse. knocking heads, seeing what thoughts are out there and seeing how best we can find solutions in the space.

Marcus Brodber 00:39:13 Right. So maybe those that are geared towards more selling, you don’t necessarily have to go to every year. Yeah. But you have to be a part of the discourse. It has to be continuous. Yeah, it has to be. It has to be effective. It has to be purposeful. and that is again one of the impetus for these people. how do we provoke and stimulate discussion in Jamaica in the payment space? So the, the the study is not meant to be the authority on what is happening. I’d love people to disagree with some of the results, but it’s so probably to provoke thought and to provoke discourse, and ensure that we’re not allowing one for one person’s opinion to, to color or perception of the.

Jordan Taylor 00:39:56 How how widely disseminated will this report be? Who gets it? How will you get it out?

Marcus Brodber 00:40:03 Right. So, when I shared it with you guys again. distribute it to the to the to the the, delegates here. it was just put on my website so I can share that the website is branch b r a NCC.

Marcus Brodber 00:40:19 Com. so you can go and take a look at it there, and we’ll have a long version with, not just the results but the analytics. And then we’ll also have a short version with just the results. so we’ll be distributing it, through the website. Right. at home in Jamaica. I’ll be doing a couple of physical copies as well to give to like, my clients and give to like, the commercial, the financial sector. I’ll be, I’ll be, I’ll be distributing maybe like maybe 400, 500 copies like that. And again, doing some PR around it, to get some awareness around it.

Jordan Taylor 00:40:53 Wonderful. Yeah. Now, I know you’ve had a long day. Probably a long couple of days. so before I get you out of here, I want to. I just want to get your opinion. You were in New Orleans last year. Right? We’re in Miami. Miami is a big hit. Yeah. People seem to like to come to Miami. I don’t really understand why.

Jordan Taylor 00:41:11 No.

Marcus Brodber 00:41:11 It’s speaks.

Jordan Taylor 00:41:12 It speaks for itself. It’s very. It’s it’s. I’ve only been here about an hour, and I see why people want to be here. Where where would you like to go? Just hypothetically, what is a place that this that this event could go some someday.

Marcus Brodber 00:41:28 All right, well, I went to New Orleans last year. We’re in Miami now. Orlando is always good. I also in that conference earlier this year in Vegas. Oh, I think Vegas is a good place that we can we can get.

Jordan Taylor 00:41:43 To know fed Branch in Vegas.

Marcus Brodber 00:41:45 You know, there’s a saying that there’s a there’s a lot to do in Vegas. Vegas can be fun. Yeah, but I like Miami, I like.

Jordan Taylor 00:41:53 I think some of our delegates would get in too much trouble when in Vegas. I’m not going to name any names.

Marcus Brodber 00:41:59 Cause I empty room on day to.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:01 Delegates, coworkers, whatever you name it. Vegas is an interesting one. Now, what about what about internationally? Just.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:07 We tend to keep this thing in the United States. But if there was a a place within the Americas, but not in the United States.

Marcus Brodber 00:42:18 No, I would keep it here and invite you to Jamaica. Oh, perfect.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:21 All right. Well, if if we take this abroad, then.

Marcus Brodber 00:42:24 I think a hotel on the beach and we’ll be.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:27 Say no more. Yeah, yeah. Talk to Sean. Get it.

Marcus Brodber 00:42:30 Done.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:31 Get it done. All right.

Marcus Brodber 00:42:33 I know you guys have the the islands. Islands seminar.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:37 We do. Is that something that you’re going to be able to.

Marcus Brodber 00:42:40 I maybe I.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:41 Should participate. Yeah. Find a way to come to Fiji.

Marcus Brodber 00:42:44 Yeah.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:45 But, you know, it’s not going to be in Fiji forever, so.

Marcus Brodber 00:42:47 Yeah.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:48 So get it rotating.

Marcus Brodber 00:42:50 Jamaica.

Jordan Taylor 00:42:50 I mean I’ve heard worse ideas in my life, so I like the sound of that. we’ll definitely have to, to, to keep you posted on, on our plans, but, this is great.

Jordan Taylor 00:43:01 I’m going to let you. I’ll let you get out of here.

Marcus Brodber 00:43:03 Thank you. Jordan.

Jordan Taylor 00:43:03 Thanks so much. Pleasure was mine. Congratulations on the report. Thank you. And one last thing. Jens told me that you perhaps in your speech and your presentation, you you offered up a little Jamaican colloquialism. He couldn’t quite remember, but he said it was hilarious and that I needed to ask you about it, so I think that’d be a perfect close.

Marcus Brodber 00:43:22 So it was, as I said, that we’ll have where was it with Ottawa? Ottawa, which means we’re a little. But we are strong and we’re resilient. and the events with the hurricane, you know, you kind of have to pull on that scene right here to just remind ourselves that, you know, over Jamaica’s history has been one where we have always punched above our weight class. We have some of the fastest runners ever. We have one of them.

Jordan Taylor 00:43:48 A couple of them.

Marcus Brodber 00:43:49 Yeah. We have one of the biggest, music stars of all time ever with Bob Marley.

Marcus Brodber 00:43:54 we have this rich culture that people like and like to emulate. So, just a reminder to ourselves, you know, to remember that we are we’re small, but we’re strong and resilient. So.

Jordan Taylor 00:44:07 I think we just found the, the title of our episode right there.

Marcus Brodber 00:44:10 All right, I like it.

Jordan Taylor 00:44:11 I think we’re good. Marcus, thank you very much. All right. Once again, thank you very much for listening to the exchange podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, download wherever you get your podcasts so you don’t miss any new episodes. Until next time.